Calling all Soviet Kirov-class (Орлан) Project 1144 & Slava-class (Атлант) Project 1164 fans

[chuck]

I plan to build a version of Pytor velikiy to reflect what the ship might look like if fully fitted out. The changes to the stock configuration I intend are:

1. Tombstone FC radar fore and aft
2. Cross sword FC radar fore and aft
3. SA-N-9 launchers fore and aft

My questions are:

1. Does trumpeter 1/350 kit provide any extra tombstone, crossword, and rotory tops of SA-n-9 launchers (8 extra needed).
2. Is there any other features on the later kirov class vessel that were clearly intended but not fitted as result of fall of USSR and subsequent financial crisis afflicting Russian navy?

[GTDEATH13]

The only spare crossword radars you can get your hand onto are those in the Trumpeter Udaloy kit ( http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10056058) in case anyone is building it as Udaloy without the radars. You can also get the SA-N-9 launchers from this kit.

I have four pe launchers from the trumpter pe set for udaloy but they are not of good quality (too shallow detail, will be lost after paint)...

You can scratchbuild the second tombstone radar, it is ver easy and the Trumpeter parts are very simple.

You can also try resin casting and duplicate the kit parts, will be relatively easy.

I also think orange hobby makes some aftermarket soviet/ russian goodies...

Another addition you can make are the 9K33M "OSA-M" launchers that were installed on the first three ships but not on Peter the Great. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K33_Osa#Variants

You definately need to replace the kit supplied kashtans.... They are horrible...

Hope I have helped...

[EJFoeth]

It is possible these are speakers or pick ups for propeller noise cancellation?

Yes, but that wouldn't cancel the noise fully. You cannot accurately predict your noise some distance away from the ship based on noise measured at the ship hull. Part of the noise is sound and part is the variable pressure field from the propeller which you cannot separate when you are too close. Still, would be interesting to learn what's possible...

[chuck]

Yes, but it's probably worth the trouble if the system can successfully obscure any distinctive aspects of the ship's normal accoustic signature so enemy sonars can't identify which ship it is, or how many blades it has on its screw, etc.

[Ticonderoga]

Post war USN ships had a device called Prairie Masker that was used to "quiet down" the nose of the props. It consisted of a series of holes on the side of the ship (may have been on the propellers too, can't remember) that bled compressed air down the side of the hull and past the props. I don't know how successful this was.

Cavitation (due high prop speed) occurs when the water literally boils around the trailing edge of the prop blades. As the gas bubbles implode they of course make a lovey sound that the sludgmariners love to hear. I doubt very much that any "shaping" of the underwater hull would do much to silence the acoustic signature of the ship. I would suggest that this would be done to improve the hydrodynamic performance of the hull and the efficiency of the prop system.

Submarine props are typically very large compared to surface ships and they have a very unique scimitar type design, all designed to reduce the incidence of cavitation, even at relatively high speed.

Ship borne towed array sonar or VDS are typically on very long lines from the ship so as to reduce the impact of interference from the ship its self.

The other interesting thing here is that the Kirov class are nuclear, hence they use boilers and have rather heavy duty cooling pumps to manage the reactor core heat generation. These pumps and the boilers themselves, would give these ships a very unique set of acoustic signature lines at some very discrete frequencies, very hard to disguise and again, music to the ears of a sludgemariner.

Andrew

[rritchie71]

Guys, not on the models but on the real things here. Although I personally think it is doubtful the first and second units will sail again (Kirov and Frunze) although the Russians did bring a very badly deteriorated Udaloy (Vice-Admiral Kulakov) back from the dead and she continues to sail today in good condition.
The Admiral Nakhimov has been defueled and is being prepped for refuelling, and according to news, those funds have been supplied to do so, but not enough funds to update her weapons and put her back to sea, but why set about refuelling a nuclear ship if you are not going to sail her?

I saw some recent photos of her near the now Indian carrier �INS Vikramaditya� as she was proceeding on sea trials, compared to some other shots, she has had Top Dome and Top Steer removed, maybe refurbishment or replacement with new systems?

All I can say is that they are definitely working on her to a degree and it would be brilliant to see her back at sea again.

Robert

[chuck]

Russians claim to intend to bring all 4 kirovs back into service by 2020. Of course Kirov herself would be 40 years old by then. It's not clear why that would still be a good thing for her navy.

[chuck]

Post war USN ships had a device called Prairie Masker that was used to "quiet down" the nose of the props. It consisted of a series of holes on the side of the ship (may have been on the propellers too, can't remember) that bled compressed air down the side of the hull and past the props. I don't know how successful this was.

Cavitation (due high prop speed) occurs when the water literally boils around the trailing edge of the prop blades. As the gas bubbles implode they of course make a lovey sound that the sludgmariners love to hear. I doubt very much that any "shaping" of the underwater hull would do much to silence the acoustic signature of the ship. I would suggest that this would be done to improve the hydrodynamic performance of the hull and the efficiency of the prop system.

Submarine props are typically very large compared to surface ships and they have a very unique scimitar type design, all designed to reduce the incidence of cavitation, even at relatively high speed.

Ship borne towed array sonar or VDS are typically on very long lines from the ship so as to reduce the impact of interference from the ship its self.

The other interesting thing here is that the Kirov class are nuclear, hence they use boilers and have rather heavy duty cooling pumps to manage the reactor core heat generation. These pumps and the boilers themselves, would give these ships a very unique set of acoustic signature lines at some very discrete frequencies, very hard to disguise and again, music to the ears of a sludgemariner.

Andrew

Supposedly the soviets perfected a electronic system that picks up ship's noise in real time, actively and electronically generates an out-of-phase sound pattern, and use that sound to ecancel out the ship's noise.

So the point is not to diminish the noise at the source, or block the noise from reaching the water, but canceling the noise once it is in the water.

Udaloy class supposedly has the noise cancellation system installed. Perhaps one or more of the kirovs do as well, since kirovs have essentially the same antisubmarine capabilities as the specialized udaloys.

[Ticonderoga]

They would do it for the same reason the USN brought their BB's out of mothballs. Cheaper more flexible HVU and easier to defend than a Carrier.

The cynic in me says, "Ive just sold a capable Aircraft Carrier to another Navy, I better have something that can defend against it......."

[rritchie71]

Although she would still carry a lot of strategic clout and the Admiral's want her, I think she is more of a political asset than a naval one. PTG has done some world tours and the Russian held high level meetings on her during the port visits. It�s like POTUS coming to a country and saying, sure let�s have a meeting on my 100,000 tonne aircraft carrier, she's anchored a couple miles off your capital city...... The Kirov class is feared and awed enough to set the �tone� and project power without even firing a shot.

Robert

[Ticonderoga]

Although she would still carry a lot of strategic clout and the Admiral's want her, I think she is more of a political asset than a naval one. PTG has done some world tours and the Russian held high level meetings on her during the port visits. It�s like POTUS coming to a country and saying, sure let�s have a meeting on my 100,000 tonne aircraft carrier, she's anchored a couple miles off your capital city...... The Kirov class is feared and awed enough to set the �tone� and project power without even firing a shot.

Robert

Couldn't agree more - Sabre Rattling at its most awesome - with the pointy bit close to your nose!!!! Great platform for a cocktail party too

[EJFoeth]

I doubt very much that any "shaping" of the underwater hull would do much to silence the acoustic signature of the ship. I would suggest that this would be done to improve the hydrodynamic performance of the hull and the efficiency of the prop system.

Well, you try to design the hull and shaft line so that the inflow to the propeller is as homogeneous as possible; variations in inflow speed and direction lead to variations to blade loading and variations in blade loading lead to noise and that noise from the propeller is scattered by the hull into the far field. So there is a degree of control. We notice that the cruise ship industry, who always designed for low onboard noise are now getting more and more interested in their noise signature as well (it's a matter of time before underwater noise is considered pollution; some areas are already closed off for noisy ships). The tricky thing is low noise on board does not mean low noise in the far field and vice versa so I am really curious about the Russian masking system and how effective (or not) it is. The best way to get a good noise reading is running a ship over an acoustic measurement track fitted with sensors. Perhaps we can invite them for a few test runs?

Reducing cavitation is by far the most effective method but you cannot be cavitation-free above 20-22 knots (submarines excluded I guess). Cavitation usually starts in the tip vortex of a propeller and next on the leading edge and actually never occurs at the trailing edge unless a cavity covers the entire blade. If you do have cavitation at the training edge only you need to fire the designer

[Ticonderoga]

An interesting little cavitation experiment/demo


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQvbispmUF4

[EJFoeth]

That's a mixer, nor a propeller

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpklBS3s ... re=related

[Ticonderoga]

This has probably been seen before, but I found a couple of these pictures useful, especially the Voshkod photo.

http://englishrussia.com/2011/12/19/cru ... -exercise/

Andrew

[rritchie71]

Hi Andrew, don't know if you have seen these (there Russian), but they have some great photos and plans.

http://forums.airbase.ru/2006/05/t39167 ... aryag.html

http://forums.airbase.ru/2006/09/t66977 ... -1164.html

Cheers

Robert

[modellmariner]

Hello, modern Russian warships like Slava and Udaloy class have a main deck in a brown color. According to my informations, the color of the deck was originally gray. With an anti-slip coating of graphite and color. Is that correct?

J�rg

[Ticonderoga]

Hello, modern Russian warships like Slava and Udaloy class have a main deck in a brown color. According to my informations, the color of the deck was originally gray. With an anti-slip coating of graphite and color. Is that correct?

J�rg

Hi J�rg

Here is a recent photo of Varyag, it seems that on the weather decks (or one deck) that she has an almost bare metal deck with what we used to call a black "Deck Wash" and her upper decks are mostly the brown "rusty" type colour.

Andrew

[modellmariner]

@Andrew Thank you!

1989 was the main deck of the Moskva in a dark gray color.

http://navsource.narod.ru/photos/02/169/02169152.jpg

2003 was the top in a dark brown color. Caused by corrosion?

http://navsource.narod.ru/photos/02/169/02169244.jpg


J�rg.

[JohnMGD]

on mil photo net check out the Navy day in SeveroMosrk now that how to run a open day
the russian navys not quite dead yet love the way the test the asw mortars in the midlle of the harbour

http://militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=91979

Where have all the pictures gone ?? Graham please contact me, it seems I can not contact you !!!


Greetings

John.