Calling all Soviet Kirov-class (Орлан) Project 1144 & Slava-class (Атлант) Project 1164 fans

[Peter H]

Hi Neptune

Thanks for your reply and the info.
So the "spare" Top Dome may be useful forward but I see your point on where or how to install due to its size & weight, and it's really not worthwhile.

I looked again about the Black I though I remembered instead of Red for lower hull and it was from the 1/350 Trumpeter Slava class Moskva kit, which shows the black lower hull. Certainly Not any of the Kirov class. As you mentioned the Boot Topping I have seen could be either Black or White depending on ship type and age etc so that's interesting.

I am currently reading John A. Schettler's "Kirov" and have his Kirov II and Kirov III to read, hence my interest and questions on what options I can or will use when I start my Pyotr Velikiy.

Thanks again for your assistance.

Peter H
Sydney, AU

[redoctober27]

Hello, silly question but , does anyone know of a spray paint preferably by Tamaya that accurately represents or closely represents the oranges colored decks of Russian ships? Thank you!

[Sauragnmon]

I spent some time catching up on the whole thread, but I have a few things to share that I think might be pertinent for some of the questions/issues that I noticed did not seem resolved.

1 - the Launch from Frunze's Bow:

A - Too far forward for SA-N-9.
B - Hot vs Cold Launch - SA-N-9 is cold launched, with a nose-mounted rocket that kicks it down towards horizontal before the main motor kicks in. What you're seeing are, possibly, the Tin Man rocket launchers which are right in that area and hot launch.
C - I'm not sure there's a whole hell of a lot of detail to be Had on the SA-N-9 launcher, looking at the ones in the video I posted below. Not as much as the S-300F launchers on, say, Slava Class.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuH3VL-IP4g -- starting at 9:00 it goes through weapon systems 9:49 is a SA-N-9 launch, notice no burner until it's on trajectory.

2 - the varying deck colours: I think it was Neptune and I had a discussion about this some time back, and the black deck is actually a fresh coat of the Russian Anti-skid coating. It starts out that dark, and especially on the North Fleet it is a sticky, tarry type substance with grit as well as a sticky nature, so it does not freeze in the cold and flake off. The Orange is the typical deck paint. I'm not entirely sure about the Green, might be a different anti-skid or a paint for some use with the helicopters in low light. You don't tend to see that green anywhere outside of aircraft zones though. There are pictures of the Kievs with the whole aircraft area painted in that green, but anywhere else was standard deck orange. The brown colour observed on Moskva is likely, as theorized, weathering of the surface.

3 - something else I noticed about the picture of PTG's Bow - there's a new dome on the center of the forward radar farm, a white dome. That's new, as it looks to be in the spot where the Forward Cross Swords radar should be if it were mounted. Not sure what that's all about.

4 - Rritchie71's comparison pictues - these seem to be of Nakhimov/Kalinin, owing to the fact it's got Kashtan on the side of the rear superstructure. In the first picture, that's not Top Steer on top of her aft mast, that looks more like Plate Steer, where it's one array and a dish, which might suggest why it was removed, as Plate Steer wasn't used on many ships before Top Plate came into service (good example, look at the Sovremenny Class, they served with Top Steer, Plate Steer AND Top Plate units on different hulls). Top Dome has been removed, which is interesting, could be a lead-in to Tombstone installation. Something missed, was the fact that Kite Screech is also missing from its usual place just abaft of the Top Dome position. If you really look, even her Forward Top Dome has been removed from its place on top of the bridge.

Just a few things I thought I could share input on.

[redoctober27]

What is the best photo etch for the Kirov class ships in 1/700 out there? Things like radars , cross walks, rails, bridge , and mast parts?

[redoctober27]

Second question is does anyone know if Russia will be arming their ships the Kirov class and Slava class with the new P-800 onyx missile systems?

[Sauragnmon]

Well, I don't really do etch sets, so I'll let somebody else field that question.

As to the P-800 Oniks? I don't know its dimensions off hand, but I remember seeing something about a Sovremenny with a VLS in place of the old SA-N-7 single arm launchers. Might be something they put in there. They say it's supposed to replace the Moskit, so that means it might be fitted in the launch tubes on Sovremenny and Chabanenko as a refit... maybe in Tarantuls even. The thought of one missile replacing both Moskit and Granit I find suspect... though replacing the Bazalt might be more logical, since they've seen Granit perform in a couple of deployments, and Slava/Bazalt were a combination designed as a redundant backup in case Granit didn't perform, if I remember correctly. The whole axial-flow jet/ramjet/rocket-ramjet combination provides a lot of open opportunity, and its a pretty streamlined airframe design. I remember hearing the Granit was similar in design, but significantly larger than Oniks, owing probably to warhead and guidance package. I guess the best answer is "Time will tell".

[Timmy C]

There is an article on RIA Novosti (Russian news site) from 2011 that says they're planning on putting the Onyks on the Kirovs as they enter refit/modernization.

[Sauragnmon]

I could surmise that makes some form of sense, thinking over it a little. There's two naming conventions for the Russian Naval AShMs, if you look back. Shorter ranged missiles are insects - Moskit, Termit, while the heavy missiles are Stones - Onyx, Basalt, Granite... I remember there was talk of a ramjet version of Granit, but I guess they're going to use Oniks, and possibly increase the count on board if they replace the launch tubes.

[Sauragnmon]

Back to the topics of the Kirovs... I found another interesting video that shows a few different launches and some nice footage of the whole class. Here's the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCxOYeuKZUM

I think there's a couple of shots of the Osa-M/SA-N-4 launchers, where a missile is fired laterally off the forward section, but too far aft for the RBU/Tin Man sets, so it could well be the Osa-M launching off of one of the first three.

0:41 there's a side-angle launch, but it looks odd for a Kirov... I think it's a SA-N-7 off a Sovremenny, considering what is visible of the structure in that area... I could be wrong though.

1:41 looks dubious, the layout looks more like a side shot from a Slava - if you freeze it exactly when the shot jumps, you'll see the ESW antennas - Rum Tub Conicals and Side Globe Domes, though the lateral trajectory and lack of forward superstructure elements suggests it's an aftward view possibly, so it could still be an Osa-M launch.

Other eyes might add more clarity, but I figured I'd share it.

[Sauragnmon]

Found another little gem, this one's got some action footage from the Moskva... including Osa-M, Bazalt, RBU-6000 and AK-130...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXgKQ1CnIV0

[Neptune]

something else I noticed about the picture of PTG's Bow - there's a new dome on the center of the forward radar farm, a white dome. That's new, as it looks to be in the spot where the Forward Cross Swords radar should be if it were mounted. Not sure what that's all about.

It's a communications system, you'll find the same domes on the upgraded Slava's, both sides of the mast if I remember correctly.
To me it just means that they aren't planning on putting any extra Podkat guidance radar in that place.

As for Onyx, shouldn't be too difficult, but I don't see the real use of it. They'll have a LOT of free space, they might put some LACM launchers along as well, or increase the SAM load. Although if I were them, I'd invest more in survivability, as it is now, she has a pretty large open below deck space forward, which makes her vulnerable.
There is one case, a Charlie II called Berkut, where they have replaced the Siren/Malakhit launchers with Yakhont/Onyx launchers for testing the sub launched version. They kept the main tubes but fit 3 Yakhont missiles in each tube, since the Siren launcher is pretty similar, but probably still smaller than the Granit launcher, you can imagine how many Onyx launchers they could actually fit. Even with minor changes since they could even keep the main tubes. If they want to go thorough and remove the whole Granit system, they could fit even more, which I think is a bit of a waste of money and effort.

[ozpirate]

OK I have a question about the Kirov Class hulls. I'm building the Frunze 1/72 and plans show a guard near the propeller below the water line. Many pictures of Peter The great show nothing there. When you look at the plastic Kits 1/350 there is a guard in place. Some people remove it Some don't. Anyone have some pictures of this area but not of Peter the Great. I have those pictures and yes they aren't there.

[carr]

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[Neptune]

It's for the flow to the propellor, not strictly a guard.
It indeed seems to differ, where on a Krivak I you won't see anything, the Krivak III does have something like this to enhance flow. The Talwar, follow on to Krivak, doesn't have it anymore either. It seems they were just testing things like this.

As for Kirov, I have a crappy picture of Kirov herself, where you can easily identify the 100mm guns (so certainly her), where you can sort of see there is no such thing above/next to the props/A-frames.
Now, if Kirov doesn't have it and Velikiy doesn't have it, I would conclude none of them had it. Perhaps it was planned, perhaps on Frunze or Nakhimov, but I really doubt it.

Please see attached pic, it's open for interpretation, but to me it looks as clean as a baby's butt. Rudder, prop and A-frame look pretty sharp, no sign of this blob or shadow of one.

[Sauragnmon]

Ok, couple of question for our photo hunters...

First - I see that PTG shot collection where her weather deck is done mostly in the black antiskid. It seems that they didn't do that to the missile deck areas - potentially to avoid it lighting on fire I would imagine, considering the consistency. I'm not sure where we can assume that the black actually Ends. Any assistance? I think its somewhere around the forward end of the superstructure.

Second - In all the colours the Soviets have used with their ships, I have one wonder - by any chance, anybody got a shot where a Kirov's helipad area was a different colour? I was entertaining the thought of doing that on one of the two other Kirov models in my collection.

[carr]

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[Neptune]

Saura, the dark colour stops below the small overhang just behind the Granit launchers.
The only "different" colour I've seen on the helo deck is the green. The funniest pic I found actually had the forward part, where the Granit and Rif launchers are, also green. Funny and different sight. This was during fitting out, typically ships are painted temporarily at that moment, when going for trials or upon delivery they receive extra coats.
It seems Velikiy has ditched the dark paint again as later pics show her with full red primer decks.

Bob, indeed a pitty on the picture. If you look at it sideways that prop guard would hardly stick out, so this picture is far from conclusive. One additional argument against its presence is that within a class I've never seen a difference. There was a difference between Krivak I and III, regarding these things, but not within the Krivak I class itself as far as I know. With Velikiy not having it, and yet being laid down and built in Soviet times ('86) it is doubtful that they would have changed this in the middle of the design (agreed they did change the props).
As for the scoops, they weren't there. I'll do my best to get some nice pics up as soon as I can. Photobucket will probably make them smaller, but give me a PM if you want the large version.
The confusion probably started with the word "scoop". I'm sailing on steam ships and they have a "scoop" as well, but it's not protruding, the scoop itself is inside the hull rather than outside. So practically Trumpeter could have read the word scoop somewhere and assumed it was the same as the external scoops of a contemporary sub. Scoops on steamships are located in the bottom, the upward pressure of the water gives you some flow when moving ahead.

[Neptune]

Ok, there we go. You guys are keeping me from building again

For Saura, note the red base for the Granit hatches, with the deck green. Also helo pad is nicely green.


Again no definite proof of the (non-present) external scoops. On the bottom it is still possible, although very unlikely as they would be vulnerable and the first thing to be hit when grounding. But on the sides at least there is no sign of them.







Note the extended stabiliser.

[carr]

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[Neptune]

What strikes me is that there seems to be something strange with that lower hull. If you look at the starboard side bulb shot, there seems to be a flattened bottom part just aft of that supporting block. Much like the docking keels of the Bismarck. Could be just the light playing tricks on me. Very odd shape of hull.