Calling all Fletcher-class (DD-445) fans

[hermannsae]

Rick, thanks for your input.
The thing is, that I have very detailed pictures from the vessel from Mare Island January 11, 1945.
And that all modification have been shown with a white circle.
For instance: The life rafts are clearly different in the images from 1945. They haven't been "circled" therefore I was assuming that there is a possibility that they were on board in 1944. The same goes for the "D" shaped bulwark.

Unfortunately, I would like to show the dazzle paint scheme and to my knowledge she was not wearing it in 1945.
I do have pictures from the USS Heermann from 1944 but they are not so detailed.

Maybe I should build what I can proof.

BTW, sometimes it is very confusing for me with the different mounts. I have to do more research.

[Plastic Habit]

Here are a couple of pics of USS Heermann in 1944 showing the Measure 32/24D paint scheme. Hope they help you a little at least.

[Rick E Davis]

Sorry, I mean that for the period of August-October 1944 HEERMANN had the same types of life rafts all around. It does appear in the January 1945 photos that she had the aft life raft installation revised and doubled up with one type on one side and another type on the other side.

Unfortunately not all alterations were "circled" in Mare Island Navy Yard photos. Actually, there sometimes are different sets of the same photos in official records ...with and without circles.

The photos I have of HEERMANN dated August 1944 clearly show her with the original teardrop bulwark and the original single rafts aft and two rafts forward.







The post November 1944 - January 1945 repairs views show several modifications were made to HEERMANN. The revised life raft arrangement didn't change the forward life rafts, just the aft rafts which also double the number carried there. She had the 40-mm bulwark modified, double stowage roller racks for the K-Guns, and the ECM mainmast added.

If you wish to model HEERMANN during August - October 1944 in dazzle camo, then the previous life raft arrangement, Mk 4 radar, single roller racks, and no ECM mast is the proper arrangement. Which actually would be less work involved in modifying the Revell kit.

[hermannsae]

Rick,
Thank you for your information. Appreciated!
I do have the pictures you have. Guess, I need new glasses.
I am in contact with a very nice Gentleman, Dave McComb, who was so kind to send me some pictures of the USS Heermann.
I believe he mentioned that you scanned these photos. So, again, a big THANK YOU! I was able to print them in poster-size. They are very helpful, at least for January 1945. My mistake to assume all changes have been marked.

My other sources / references are:
- Fletcher DD445 Plans Book CD, 2002 The Floating Drydock
- Fletcher-Class Destroyer Engineering Drawings, BIW, 2010 Destroyer History Foundation
- Fletcher-Class Destroyer by Alan Raven, 1989 Naval Institute Press
- Fletcher DD�s in action, 1995 squadron/signal
- US Navy Ships Camouflage WWII: Destroyers and Destroyer Escorts, by Al Adcock, 2008 squadron/signal
- USS Kidd on Deck, by David Doyle , 2012 squadron/signal
- Warship�s Data: USS KIDD (DD661), 1989 The Floating Drydock
- USS Cassin Young (DD793) by J.Scott Harmon, 1984 Pictorial Histories Publishing Company
- Profile Warship #9 USS Charles Ausburne / Fletcher Class Destroyer 1942-1967, by W.H. Cracknell , 1971 Profile Publications
- US Navy Fletcher Class Destroyers in WWII Dazzle Camouflage by C. Lee Johnson, 2006 C. Lee Johnson
- Fletcher Class Destroyer by Lester Abbey, 2007 Seaforth Publishing (not really a reference book, but some nice models and plans)
- US Destroyers, revised edition by Norman Friedman, 2004 Naval Institute Press
- US Destroyers in action Part 2 by Al Adcock, 2004 squadron/signal
- USS Joseph P. Kennedy, Jr. (DD-850) by Tin Can Sailors, 2001 (this a Gearing Class Destroyer)

... other books, I forgot to mention:

- Unites States Navy Destroyers of World War II by John C. Reilly, Jr., Blandford Press, 1983
- Z-vor! Development of torpedo boats & destroyer 1940 -1945, Harald Fock, Koehler 2001 (in German)

To get a general overview about naval weapons:
- Naval Weapons of WW II by John Campbell, Naval Institute Press 1985


Not to mention the internet and the museum ships.

I do have some questions for clarification though:

- In the 1944 configuration the mounts for a single 20mm AA gun was a pedestal not a tripod, or? (which would make my life easier) Only the twin guns had the tripod?
- Did they still have the ring gunsights?
- In many pictures you can see trash cans in the area of the prop-guards. What is the purpose of these? I don�t think they bothered with recycling �.
- How many life rings did they carry? There should have been some regulations, or?
- Were the torpedo directors moved in 1945?
- The 24� searchlights were eliminated in 1944, or relocated?

Thanks,

Hermann

[Rick E Davis]

A quick answer for the things I can answer quickly.

- In the 1944 configuration the mounts for a single 20mm AA gun was a pedestal not a tripod, or? (which would make my life easier) Only the twin guns had the tripod?

YES they would be pedestal mounts in 1944. The tripod version for single 20-mm guns started to appear in late 1944. HEERMANN appears to have gotten them in her late 1944 refit/repair/overhaul.

- Did they still have the ring gunsights?

NO the 20-mm guns would have had the Mk 14 gunsights.

- In many pictures you can see trash cans in the area of the prop-guards. What is the purpose of these? I don�t think they bothered with recycling �.

YES they are trashcans. True they didn't care about being environmentally correct during WWII, but operationally they may not wish to leave a constant trail of garbage for an enemy to track.

- How many life rings did they carry? There should have been some regulations, or?

I don't know for sure. Look in the photos and take your best guess. Locations did vary.

- Were the torpedo directors moved in 1945?

NO ... I don't think they moved, if they were it wasn't by much. The one "circle" I think is placed in the wrong place. The 1943 photos show the directors in at least roughly the same location.

- The 24� searchlights were eliminated in 1944, or relocated?
Yes they appear to have been removed prior to the August 1944 photos. I can be wrong on the 24-in searchlights, I don't see them in the January 1945 photos, but they are there in 1943 and don't appear to be there in the August 1944. I suspect the 24-in searchlights were removed in late 1943 when HEERMANN got the forward 40-mm mounts installed.

[hermannsae]

Rick, thanks again for all the info.

Looking at the pictures from 1945, it is clearly one gun only visible, so why do they change to a tripod but not changing to the twin 20 mm?

Graphic2.jpg (24.72 KiB) Viewed 2045 times

Graphic1.JPG (14.62 KiB) Viewed 2045 times

[Rick E Davis]

Twin 20-mm guns were not "authorized" to replace the single guns on destroyers (FLETCHERS in particular) until mid-April 1945. Only a handful of FLETCHERS retained the five twin 40-mm mounts AND got the six twin 20-mm mounts replacing the seven single 20-mm mounts (installed in late April to early May 1945 during some overhauls, but not all ... starting out 20-mm twins were in short supply and larger units had priority). So HEERMANN and other FLETCHERS overhauled in late 1944 up to about April 1945 couldn't have received the twin 20-mm mounts during their overhauls, but as a weight savings (they were hunting for all the savings they could find by then) the tripod mounts replaced the cast mounts on the singles. The addition of twin 20-mm mounts was standard on the Anti-Kamikaze Mod (authorized on 30 April 1945) for FLETCHERS with the quad 40-mm mounts starting in May 1945.

[hermannsae]

I read that even the top speed dropped with all the new weapons & personnel.
The destroyers must be extremely crowded at the end of the war.

[Rick E Davis]

The biggest issue for the FLETCHERS recommissioned for the Korean War and Cold War afterwards, was the overcrowding. With the armament revisions and new sensors, things like 20-mm guns were removed to save some weight and reduce crew size ... besides they were next to useless against jet aircraft.

[hermannsae]

...coming back to the 20 mm AA ... so, I assume the single 20 mm would look like on the USS Nicolson (DD-442) model from Fine Art Models

[hermannsae]

... and the fantail would look like this ....

[Rick E Davis]

The 20-mm guns installation themselves would look like that with the Mk 14 gunsights. Not sure the bulwark would. However, that can't be NICHOLSON (DD-442) ... she was a GLEAVES class unit ... maybe they mean NICHOLAS (DD-449).

The fantail installation show is off from the FLETCHER or any other FLETCHER after the fantail 20-mm guns were added WITH the bulwark. There should be two reserve racks of depth charges for the drop tracks. See attached for a typical Bethlehem-SF built FLETCHER fantail and waist 20-mm installations.

Don't trust Fine Art Models for accuracy.

[hermannsae]

Didn't I mentioned I need new glasses .... you are correct.

Thanks Rick!

[hermannsae]

I guess I was wrong with the depth charges too.
In August/October 1944 the USS Heermann was carrying the 600 lbs., cylindrical depth charges not the �tear-drop� once.

[Rick E Davis]

At that point in time HEERMANN likely did have the earlier "ashcans", since the drop racks would require modification to use the teardrop types. The 600-lb depth charges were dropped by the drop tracks on the fantail and smaller 300-lb depth charges were used on the "K-Guns". With the teardrop shaped charges, only the 300-lb size was used ... no 600-lb sized units were adopted for use.

[Guest]

The 20-mm guns installation themselves would look like that with the Mk 14 gunsights. Not sure the bulwark would. However, that can't be NICHOLSON (DD-442) ... she was a GLEAVES class unit ... maybe they mean NICHOLAS (DD-449).

The fantail installation show is off from the FLETCHER or any other FLETCHER after the fantail 20-mm guns were added WITH the bulwark. There should be two reserve racks of depth charges for the drop tracks. See attached for a typical Bethlehem-SF built FLETCHER fantail and waist 20-mm installations.

Don't trust Fine Art Models for accuracy.

Rick, you don't have a better picture from the safety rails on the fantail, by any chance?
And were they on very ship similar, or were they "field-build" whatever the crew though would work best?

[Rick E Davis]

"Guest"

I don't understand your question "... You don't have a better picture from the safety rails on the fantail ..."??

Which FLETCHER class configuration? And I'm not sure what you are calling "safety rails" on the fantail. Guard rails for the 20-mm guns?

Please be more specific

[hermannsae]

Sorry, yes should have posted a picture.
And yes the better word is 'guard-rails". I believe they were all removed later in the war.

[Rick E Davis]

The 20-mm (and used on the single 40-mm guns as well) guard rails were only used when the lock-out cams were NOT installed. It varied from ship to ship, but in general by mid-1943 the guard rails were deleted as unnecessary from at least destroyers. Specifically on FLETCHERS the guard rails were removed "most times" during fitting-out or post-shakedown at USN yards. Actually removing the rails was considered to be a weight reduction item on the class, plus they got in the way. I don't know how the firing lock-out cams were made, but I assume they were not a stock item with pre-cut "keep out zone" cams and had to be made for each position/case. It appears that by late 1943, even the builders were able to either make the firing lock-out cams or because the installations had been standardized on the production line by then to the five twin 40-mm and seven 20-mm guns, then the cams could be mass produced for each location. On other lesser priority ships, example are LSTs, the guard rails appear to have been retained for most/all of the war.

Builders and early on before the cams were available, USN home yards installed the guard rails. They appear to have been built up "as needed", not sure that drawings were even used.

An interesting variation to the "guard rails" was seen on FLETCHERS built by Beth-SF. They installed a semi-circluar extension to the forward section of the aft bulwark "tub" to prevent the 20-mm guns from being fired forward into the ship structure and as a limited blast shield for the 20-mm gun crews from the 5-in gun (I suspect this really wouldn't have helped much in providing protection).

A lot of my comments are based on observation in photos and brief mention of the guard rails being removed in Departure Reports. Departure Reports also mention needing to modify the lock-out cams after actual test firing. So what I'm saying is general and I can be wrong for specific ships, check photos taken AFTER fitting-out was completed.

[hermannsae]

Here is another pic from the fantail USS Heerman in January 1945.
Apparently all guard rails were removed expect the build-in at the "tub".
Rick, are you referring this as "blast shield"?

Note the notches in the bulwark on both sides.

So, I assume the cams were build-in the pedestal and therefore for the modeler not visible.