Calling all Fletcher-class (DD-445) fans

[ModelMonkey]

Would this help?

https://picasaweb.google.com/1024476118 ... 4244088610

From the USS Fletcher website.

Bob

Sure does! Confirms the centerline girder was common to both round bridge and square bridge and how it fits forward.

[BB62vet]

Steve wrote:

There is an interesting gray box fixed at an angle. Any idea what it is?

Of course

The angled box to the left of the ship's wheel is the Compass - it shows the silhouette of the ship on a 360 deg. compass and as the ship's wheel is turned, the silhouette reacts and shows the helmsman what his heading is. The compass is also graduated in degrees and quadrants. A cam can be placed on the compass and the ship steered thru various maneuvers depending on the cam selected and put in place. This was very common during WWII when the task forces did zig-zagging to avoid the pesky Nazi & Jap UBoats. We only once did that sort of practice during Underway Training and it almost wrecked a couple of the DD's in our squadron. Not everyone follows orders.... We got thru it, however!

The large rectangular box to the right of the wheel and below the round brass Engine Order Telegraph, is the rpm indicator - when the Engine Order Telegraph is set to particular setting (on the orange end of the equipment) the rpms desired can be set by the Lee Helmsman (man to the right of the Helmsman) and it will show the adjusted rpm in the three square windows when the Engine room has responded and the ship is maintaining the speed desired (in rpms, not knots). There is an adjustment handle on both ends of the EOT - one for each screw (stbd/port). Typical commands are: Ahead 1/3rd, All Stop, Back 1/3rd, etc.

If this isn't correct, I'm sure one of the landlubbers on the forum will correct me!

Hank

[ModelMonkey]

Excellent description! Even an old Army guy like me can understand it. Of course, Army compasses are much smaller. And if you weren't careful, it would always point toward your M-16.

And now the square-bridge Fletcher pilot house I'm designing for 3D printing has a compass.

Since these items aren't fixed to the pilot house structurally, I'll be including an EOT, combination steering/rudder angle indicator, binnacle, chart board and remote unit separately.

[Rick E Davis]

Hopefully this helps, I don't have time to track down every detail from the BIW FLETCHER Class Engineering Drawings DVD.

The Round Bridge drawing shows a main beam down the center off-set from the centerline to port over the pilothouse. But, I don't see any cross beams supporting the roof being shown. Not sure what did, but assume they were there likely in the same spacing as seen on the rest of the deckhouse on that level.

The Square Bridge drawing is clearer that there was a main beam down the center of the pilothouse and cross beams spaced equally across the whole top deck.

The layout I have "should" be fairly accurate, like everything else some equipment layouts were changed throughout the career of these ships.

In general the overhead of the pilothouse of WWII and particularly post-WWII would be cluttered with cables and piping (with a "healthy" coverage of spray-on installation). The attached view shows a 1950s FLETCHER pilothouse. It shows the supports to the bridge face and you get a hint of how cluttered the overhead was.



Round Bridge structural drawing and layout;

Square Bridge structural drawing and layout;

[ModelMonkey]

Brilliant! The drawings and photo are extremely helpful. Thanks!

[ModelMonkey]

Removed.

[ModelMonkey]

I've noticed the design for the type of square bridge as seen on seen on some Bethlehem Steel-built Fletchers is different than those built by Bath.

The most significant visible difference is the location of doors. It appears that at least some, if not all, Bethlehem-built square-bridge Fletchers had a door on the aft bulkhead, port side, and did not have an exterior door to the captain's sea cabin.

[ModelMonkey]

The designs of the 5-inch mounts appears to have changed over time with respect to the location of stiffeners and the number of fasteners on the front of the access panels.

[aptivaboy]

Something's been bugging me - you know, other than taxes, my crazy neighbors, etc.

The Claxton received a one-off circular walkway all around her bridge, the one round bridge unit to receive one. It apparently wasn't successful and wasn't repeated in wartime. However, the round bridge DDE conversions received a similar walkaround postwar, albeit more angular in nature and somewhat more reminiscent of that found on their square bridge sisters.

So, what wasn't the Claxton's bridge walkway considered successful, only to have a broadly similar alteration made to the DDEs postwar?

Thank you!

Bob

[Dick J]

So, what wasn't the Claxton's bridge walkway considered successful, only to have a broadly similar alteration made to the DDEs postwar?

I don't have the specific documentation, but I will take a stab at it. My guess is that the open bridge on Claxton was too narrow and restrictive to be as useful as needed. It also added topweight to ships that were already topheavy. To make the open bridge any wider would have restricted the arcs of fire for the 40MM twins in front of the bridge, so that wasn't an option. The square-bridge units had the MK-37 director lowered and the pilothouse reduced in size, giving at least some weight compensation for the increased AA and electronics. And the smaller pilothouse made for a roomier open bridge without cramping the 40MM too much.

When the post-war DDE modification was made, a significant portion of the original armament was removed reducing the topweight. Some aluminum might also have been used in the modified superstructure. The open bridge was wider and differently shaped, not being restricted by 40MM guns. One often overlooked change was that the pilothouse was actually raised by a few feet to give clear sight lines over the Weapon Alpha in the position formerly occupied by mount 52. The differences between Claxton's and the DDE's open bridges was more significant than is readily apparent.

[Rick E Davis]

Dick gave a pretty good review on the CLAXTON bridge mod. This was actually the SECOND time the same similar wrap-around bridge front was tried on a "Round-Bridge" destroyer. The other was USS MAYO (DD-422), a BENSON Class unit, in September 1941. MAYO's CO wrote-up a report on the pluses and minuses of the mod to the bridge in December 1941, which basically came down to NOT BEING WORTH IT. See attached ... it is worth going to the National Archives to get answers. CLAXTON found the same big issue that MAYO and the Square-Bridge units had ... wind vortex issues that made life on the bridge wings almost impossible at times. It just didn't seem to justify being able to travel freely from side to side on the navigation bridge in having this passageway. I found a letter report similar to MAYO's report, but I didn't scan it. They never did completely solve the vortex issues on the Square-Bridge FLETCHERS after experimenting with several different bridge front vortex generator designs. Each yard was invited to come up with a design to solve the issue. You will notice a variety of bridge front edge designs on FLETCHERS. Post-WWII the "open bridge" front was enclosed fairly quickly starting in about 1953. Starting with a plexiglass windshield with a canvas roof, going to a more permanent structure later. You will note that the bridge design on the DDE's was also quickly made an enclosed type.

[Rick E Davis]

The use of the "term" "LIGHT-WEIGHT" and "HEAVY-WEIGHT" when referring to the two types (both are Mk 30 mounts with different and various Mods) of 5-in gun mounts installed on FLETCHERS, isn't technically correct. The different designs were strictly for reinforcing the lower two gun mounts shields from the overpressure from firing the superimposed 5-in guns. Most people call them the single and double "knuckle" mounts. 1960s Armament Summaries do list the main deck mounts as "Heavy" and the others as "Light", but during WWII they weren't called that in Armament Summaries or official records. I guess because of the reinforcing that the main deck mounts do weigh more, but I think you will confuse people using that nomenclature. Also there are "lefties" and "righties" based on which side of the mount the commanders hatch is located. I know one guy who made a database of "lefties and righties" for every FLETCHER ... there is no rhyme or reason as to why one unit go one set/mix and another got another mix.

The "late" model gun mounts you have represent the real "Light-Weight" shields intended to be installed on ALL FLETCHERS as they went into for overhauls to help reduce weight. The original shields had "some" ballistic splinter protection in that a heavier gage of steel was used. The USN replaced these "heavy" shields with one made out of a lighter weight #10 steel. Even with the "heavier" shields, the forward gun mount took a beating in heavy seas with several mounts being disabled in the Atlantic by being slammed with big waves. Also the newer shields were welded.

[ModelMonkey]

Thanks, Rick!

The use of the "term" "LIGHT-WEIGHT" and "HEAVY-WEIGHT" when referring to the two types (both are Mk 30 mounts with different and various Mods) of 5-in gun mounts installed on FLETCHERS, isn't technically correct. The different designs were strictly for reinforcing the lower two gun mounts shields from the overpressure from firing the superimposed 5-in guns. Most people call them the single and double "knuckle" mounts....

Noted. I use those names (light/heavy and early/late, etc.) purely for marketing purposes, to be consistent with how I have to call them on Shapeways. I had to choose a very, very brief way to differentiate them as product names on Shapeways (their product title) that would be readable on the homepage. It may also help someone here who might would like one and give them some idea what product to search for. But, Rick, your answer is so clear and logical, I'd like to include it in the product description below the title, with your permission.

You know, having served in the Army for twenty years with plenty of time in battle, I bet the gun crews in the lower mounts got some serious bell-ringer when the superfiring guns let loose. And Lord help those in the Bofors in Oerlikon tubs!

For example, an M1A1 Abrams main battle tank has a 120mm gun. As you know, the USN 5-inch mounts were 127mm. See the blast in the photo below (note the blast effects on the ground) and that suggests what the Fletcher crews endured. I can easily imagine a cooked, crushed gun captain in Mounts 51 and 55.

[aptivaboy]

Thank you, gentlemen! That makes a lot of sense.

Bob

[aptivaboy]

Two more questions for the uninitiated, if I may?

First, Mr. Davis which destroyer is on the front cover of your Round Bridged Fletcher book? I didn't see it in the captions. The USS Fletcher website claims it to be Fletcher herself on trials, but that would mean that she received the pilothouse Oerlikons and blue paint much earlier that commonly believed, so I'm skeptical.

Secondly, why were the Puget Sound units like Leutze so seriously delayed, with work halted for significant time periods? I can understand that a busy base like Puget Sound would be rife with all kinds of work and perhaps not as many workers as desired to get it all done expeditiously, but three years for a ship laid down in mid 1941 seems excessive, especially when destroyers were always in demand.

Thank you in advance. Also, is there a square bridged Fletcher book on the horizon, perhaps?

Bob

[Rick E Davis]

That photo has been "CREDITED" as being USS FLETCHER and O'BANNON in several places. Actually NARA lists it as being USS O'BANNON. But they are wrong. There is no way that is a view of FLETCHER on her trials and there are NO 20-mm guns on the pilothouse, only Mk 51 directors. Several years ago on a Reunion Website I think for USS HALFORD, they made an argument that the series of photos was of their ship. It wasn't until we started selecting photos for the book that I took a serious look to see just WHICH destroyer this was, looking at it as an unknown because it was possible all three names above were wrong. Just from the bridge configuration I confirmed that this is USS HALFORD and likely was taken shortly after her upgrade from the Aircraft-Handling configuration to her Ten 40-mm configuration. AKA, about early 1944.

Oh and yes there is a caption for this photo ... look on the last page opposite the inside back cover ... captions for both front and back covers are there.

LEUTZE and her sisters HOWORTH and KILLEN had their construction suspended in December 1942, but work on HALFORD continued (both had been launched at the end of October 1942). There were higher priority construction projects at the time. Several Navy Yards suspended construction (some large ship keels were taken up after having been laid) to get the "HIGHER PRIORITY" DE and LST construction projects done and to maintain repair of existing units. PSNY had been assigned much of the work on the pre-WWII Battleships repairs and upgrades and also got similar work on some of the WWII-built Battleships. So, even before the suspension of work on them, the construction of the FLETCHERS ordered pre-WWII were low on the work pecking order and was going slow. Anyway, it wasn't until about September-October 1943 that work resumed on these three destroyers and the last four (DD594-597) on their order list could be started. Remember that there were several private yards also building destroyers and they continued working at a good pace.

[Max Corey]

Greetings.

I am currently building the Tamaya 1/350 Fletcher with many additional detail kits but cannot find plain hull numbers that are not outlined in black. The kit decals are yellow. No, they should be white.

Perhaps model railroad lettering?

Ex destroyer snipe.

[Rick E Davis]

Max,

For what time period are you modeling your model ... WWII or Post-WWII??? Determines hull number size.

[Max Corey]

I was aboard the Fletcher in Subic Bay, Philippenes in 1969 and her number had the black shadow. I want WWII lettering in plain white and small.

My ship was the USS Hugh Purvis, DD709, a Allan J Sumner built in 1945. We were outboard of the Fletcher and outboard of us was the USS New Jersey. I had a friend on the Jersey, a gunner's mate, and he showed me her guns. I watched her shoot broadsides at night... along with two LMSRs firing 5 inch rockets and all the 5"38's were firing fast and furious. We silenced Tiger Island (a small island off the coast of N Viet Nam with six inch gun emplacements at that time (1968).

Max Corey MM2, a two combat tours Viet Nam veteran.

[robertmelvin]

I was aboard the Fletcher in Subic Bay, Philippenes in 1969 and her number had the black shadow. I want WWII lettering in plain white and small.

My ship was the USS Hugh Purvis, DD709, a Allan J Sumner built in 1945. We were outboard of the Fletcher and outboard of us was the USS New Jersey. I had a friend on the Jersey, a gunner's mate, and he showed me her guns. I watched her shoot broadsides at night... along with two LMSRs firing 5 inch rockets and all the 5"38's were firing fast and furious. We silenced Tiger Island (a small island off the coast of N Viet Nam with six inch gun emplacements at that time (1968).

Max Corey MM2, a two combat tours Viet Nam veteran.

First, thank you for your service. You guys never got the welcome home you deserved - a blight on our society's history.
I've to to say that the fireworks display you describe must have been one hell of a show! As I recall my history of that era, one of the conditions the North Vietnamese delegation placed on any substantive discussion of peace was that we first withdraw the New Jersey from North Vietnamese waters, if not the area entirely. To me that says something about the impression she made on those who did not wish us well.

Bob