Calling all Wickes-class & Clemson-class "Four-Piper" fans

[Eric Bergerud]

There's a really nice PDF done by a Brit Vallejo Paint / ship modeller junkie: Vallejo WWII Naval Color Equivalents - ipms swamp:
http://www.ipmsswamp.com/files/VallejoW ... alents.pdf . Includes all 20th century navies. I've found this invaluable for several kits as I've added other Vallejo conversion charts to it. The Vallejo Model Color match for Cavite Blue is MC900 "French Mirage Blue". (Author also claims it a match for early war Flight Deck Stain 21/251. Match this against my pretty accurate conversion software and we are looking at FS 35240 (close is FS 25240); LifeColor UA098; RAL 7001; Revell (Aqua - German) 374; Tamiya XF53 (ballpark). Humbrol 128 is close if you want enamel. Can't swear to this but I think White Ensign is either gone or hard to find. I think their site was bought by Freetime.

Eric

[Quaestor]

Can't swear to this but I think White Ensign is either gone or hard to find.

Not quite ... Colourcoats are now owned and sold by Sovereign Hobbies in the UK. Jamie posts on here occasionally under the Sovereign name.
In the US, Warship Hobbies sells the ship colors on eBay.

I know FRAMSailor asked for "readily available"; but I thought I'd link to those mix recipes in case he or anyone else might find them of use. Particularly those (like me) who are partial to enamels.

[Eric Bergerud]

I googled "Humbrol 128 enamel" so I and got a couple of pretty good color samples for what Humbrol calls US Compass Gray. Computer monitor is not an ideal instrument, but the color certainly looks like Vallejo French Mirage Blue - a light blue-gray. Whether it matches cavite blue I can't testify - the IMPS document says it does.

I've got the White Ensign enamels for Navy Blue, Deck Blue and Haze Gray. Don't use the paints but they provided very nice samples to base mixes on. (The LifeColor renditions are quite close to CC.)
Eric

[weedsrock2]

There's a really nice PDF done by a Brit Vallejo Paint / ship modeller junkie: Vallejo WWII Naval Color Equivalents - ipms swamp:
http://www.ipmsswamp.com/files/VallejoW ... alents.pdf . Includes all 20th century navies. I've found this invaluable for several kits as I've added other Vallejo conversion charts to it. The Vallejo Model Color match for Cavite Blue is MC900 "French Mirage Blue". (Author also claims it a match for early war Flight Deck Stain 21/251. Match this against my pretty accurate conversion software and we are looking at FS 35240 (close is FS 25240); LifeColor UA098; RAL 7001; Revell (Aqua - German) 374; Tamiya XF53 (ballpark). Humbrol 128 is close if you want enamel. Can't swear to this but I think White Ensign is either gone or hard to find. I think their site was bought by Freetime.

Eric

I am the guy that created that chart. I have also continue to refine and update the chart. If you would like the most recent version you can download it from here. You can tell the version by the date in the reference footnote. The reference list is also a pretty good source of publications on camouflage. I have been collecting that library for about eight years now.

https://app.box.com/s/lpv77y3mpt9w5lf4214e

I have also started adding WWII air force colors over the last few years. I am currently doing a detailed study of IJNAF and IJAAF colors and will update that section in a month or so. Right now it is pretty basic. I also have the Italian air force to do yet.

PS. I am an American. But I will take the compliment of being called a Brit anytime!

[Guest]

photos of 4 stack-destroyers in Boston Harbor
http://www.lesliejonesphotography.com/c ... =destroyer

[Eric Bergerud]

Glad to make your acquaintance. As noted your chart has been a huge help - I'll have to compare your new aircraft colors with bits and pieces I added (in .doc format of course) to fill things out. I'll have to get MC 993 straight away (I have 92 and 94) and see if that's a possible answer to the great "original Zero" color quandry. Regardless I really like Vallejo paints and find Model Color perfectly good with an airbrush. So I have about 100 of them. You know - it's only $2.50. Builds up over time.

Thanks again
Eric

[weedsrock2]

Glad to make your acquaintance. As noted your chart has been a huge help - I'll have to compare your new aircraft colors with bits and pieces I added (in .doc format of course) to fill things out. I'll have to get MC 993 straight away (I have 92 and 94) and see if that's a possible answer to the great "original Zero" color quandry. Regardless I really like Vallejo paints and find Model Color perfectly good with an airbrush. So I have about 100 of them. You know - it's only $2.50. Builds up over time.

Thanks again
Eric

I am glad you find the chart useful. It has been a long-term labor of love. Right now I am showing a 1:1 mixture of 886 (Green Grey) and 951 (white) as a pretty good match to the light gray green color shown in the new book on the Mitsubishi A6M Zero by Juszczak. But I have not verified it to my total satisfaction just yet. I also have preliminary mixes worked out for Mitsubishi, Nakajuma and Aichi dark green.

And thank you for the welcome! I have lurked on this site every now and again for a long time, but I thought it was time to let you guys know where to find the updated chart. The one you guys have is painfully old. I have tweaked quite a few colors since then. The trade-off is you have to do more mixing to get there. Some guys prefer to use a color right out of the bottle and don't mind if the color isn't a perfect match. Especially in the miniatures gaming world where I am active right now. But my scale modeling history, and my general fascination with naval camouflage, has led me to continuously fine tune the colors. They still aren't all perfect, but they are pretty close I think. And there is no way to know if many of them will ever be perfect anyway. I have some color mixes that nicely "disappear" when I spot them on a Snyder & Short paint chip, but others are still just a tiny bit off.

[Eric Bergerud]

I think the eye is an imperfect computer and subject to a number of variables. I had a humbling experience. When Zero amber/grey seeking I stumbled on a photo of a rebuilt Zero that reportedly has a very good rendition of the real deal:

I put that into Corel paint and ran my cursor over it and watched the RGB values - they varied greatly by moving the mouse a very small bit, so the eye is kind of averaging. I know some fine modelers that are content with ballpark colors and use washes and weathering to bring things into line.

The guy that really knows I think everything about the Zero color (and IJ aircraft colors in general) is author Nick Millman who also runs the site Aviation of Japan http://www.aviationofjapan.com/ . He did a long and very detailed PDF on the subject for $10 and it was well worth it. His samples are mostly quantified in Munsell rather than FS. He argues that a Zero in good condition is Munsell 7.4 Y 5.8/2.0. He thinks Tamiya XF76 is okay for a faded Zero, but too gray for the original. He finds MA Hemp to be too dark. The closest commercial paint he believes is LifeColor RLM 02 (UAO71) which vendors peg at FS3651 - very close to Vallejo 886. But Nick thinks the LC should be lighter. I stumbled on a formula of Feldgrau 830, khaki gray 880, green gray 971 as a good mix. Who knows. Odd color: amber gray - so figure, gray, khaki and green, with the bulk of the green being "fugitive." Nick gave me samples for an early war Val which carried a color that was more amber, and if a photo got the light wrong the plane looked light green - despite the fact there was almost no green in the mix.

BTW: I built a "Secial Attack" A6M2 a while back and Millman said that the Nakajima IJN Green was very dark - "almost black." I spent some time on that one and think he's right.

Do keep us up to date on any more of your labor - very helpful to people like me who really like water based acrylics.
Eric

[Tracy White]

For what it's worth, Munsell is a system for describing color whereas FS is just a collection of standard colors. I can "describe" obsolete colors in Munsell that don't exist in FS, such as the WWII USN paints.

[weedsrock2]

The guy that really knows I think everything about the Zero color (and IJ aircraft colors in general) is author Nick Millman who also runs the site Aviation of Japan http://www.aviationofjapan.com/ . He did a long and very detailed PDF on the subject for $10 and it was well worth it. His samples are mostly quantified in Munsell rather than FS. He argues that a Zero in good condition is Munsell 7.4 Y 5.8/2.0. He thinks Tamiya XF76 is okay for a faded Zero, but too gray for the original. He finds MA Hemp to be too dark. The closest commercial paint he believes is LifeColor RLM 02 (UAO71) which vendors peg at FS3651 - very close to Vallejo 886. But Nick thinks the LC should be lighter. I stumbled on a formula of Feldgrau 830, khaki gray 880, green gray 971 as a good mix. Who knows. Odd color: amber gray - so figure, gray, khaki and green, with the bulk of the green being "fugitive." Nick gave me samples for an early war Val which carried a color that was more amber, and if a photo got the light wrong the plane looked light green - despite the fact there was almost no green in the mix.

BTW: I built a "Secial Attack" A6M2 a while back and Millman said that the Nakajima IJN Green was very dark - "almost black." I spent some time on that one and think he's right.

Do keep us up to date on any more of your labor - very helpful to people like me who really like water based acrylics.
Eric

We are way off topic here, but I really appreciate the link!

I tried your mix and it certainly looks close to the reference photo in the Juszczak's book. I compared it to my mix and yours is just a tiny bit greener and darker, but I have to use my magnifying goggles to tell the difference. Juszczak's book references the following web site. I just now checked it and the guy appears to have done a lot of very good research on aircraft colors. He comes at it from a picture painter's perspective.

http://colesaircraft.blogspot.com/2013/ ... -3148.html

He lists the color as being close to FS 34201. That would be closer to your mix. Aesthetically I like my mix a little better because it is a little lighter and grayer. But at this point they are both very close.

Have fun exploring the site if you haven't seen it before. I plan to!

Mike

PS. I saw a Toyota Prius a few months ago that appeared to be the same color. Just as it would have looked fresh and glossy on the Zeke.

[Eric Bergerud]

Tracy,

No quibbles. I'm lucky enough to have a partially filled Munsell book which includes the samples Millman refers to. But unless you're really good at turning theory into a paint mix, you're still looking at a color sample, although one not seen via a computer monitor.

I've got another project going in addition to the original Zero quest. I've tried a few chromatic blacks - looking for a mix that comes out with a very deep purple tint. I've gotten close. Once there, should be able to add white and get all the navy blue, deck blue and haze gray. No real reason to do it I suppose, but it's great fun.

Appreciate your posts. I write military history and realize how useful and difficult detailed technical analysis is. I've used a lot of it in my Pacific War books. Certainly wish I knew more about how things worked. Can't tell you how often it would have helped modelling if I knew what the real machinery/detail the parts represent actually did.

Eric

[Eric Bergerud]

Paint mixing is like junior high art class and I like it. Thankee for the post because if Cole is right, the closest equivalent is LifeColor Tan (UA039) and not LC RLM 02 Gray (UA071). Have to check with Millman. That color would be part of an early war A6M2 but also the early A6M3 (not Hamp) that were flying out of Rabaul. When the Japanese ordered "defensive" camo (Dark Green over Gray) many planes just spray painted the green over early war "offensive" scheme (amber gray) - the famous IJNAF ace Hiroyoshi Nishizawa led a squadron that has been clearly sprayed over - I think he did on purpose so Americans would remember the crazy looking Zeros - a little like Richthofen.

Thanks again. Better start my ship.

Eric

[Not_so_COB]

For those of you wanting to upgrade the 4'/50 Cals on your 1/240 Revell kits, I have modeled them and placed them on Shapeways for sale. They aren't a difficult gun to scratchbuild, but getting 4 exactly alike is a pain in the nether regions. If you buy some, please let me know what you think of them.

http://shpws.me/LiY5



Chris

[Eric Bergerud]

Chris,

Wish I'd know about these a while back. I bought a set of B&D barrels made for the Revell 240 DD. They replace the barrels themselves and the results would be an improvement, but not, I'd guess, as good as yours. I'd get a set regardless but unfortunately the shipping for your product is pretty slow, and there's a very good chance I'd be gone by January 23 - the minimum time quoted. Too bad, I'd like to support an effort like this. I hate resin and have no love for PE - 3D may be a good alternatives. Anyway, I have your page marked.

Eric

[throck3]

Chris,
Too bad these aren't in 1/350 scale.
throck3

[kb466]

Can Shapeways scale them up to 1/350? Or even better, I'd love to see a good kit of a flush-decker in 1/200-- and then these guns could be scaled up to 1/200 scale!
Bill M.

[Not_so_COB]

well, actually they'd be scaled down for 1/350....they would be even smaller. I'm unaware of a 1/200 four stacker kit.

[kb466]

Yes, of course you're right. The Revell kit is 1/240. I had it in my head that it was 1/420. And yes, there is no 1/200 or 1/192 kit of a flush deck destroyer. It would be great if someone did one. I have the 1/96 scale Tehnoart kit of the USS Ward DD-139. A spectacular kit, though not cheap. Haven't started on it yet. Hope to soon. Am building it as a pre 1940 Asiatic Fleet Destroyer-- at least that's the plan.
Bill M.

[ArizonaBB39]

Are there any 1/700 kits of Clemson/Wickes class kits available, or are they all out of production? If that is the case where could I get a good set of plans to scratch build from?

[Brian K.]

Are there any 1/700 kits of Clemson/Wickes class kits available, or are they all out of production? If that is the case where could I get a good set of plans to scratch build from?

Flyhawk makes 1/700 kit of the USS Ward (Wickes Class) in stock at Free Time.