Calling all USS Saratoga CV-3 fans

[Elvis965]

That looks awesome, Steve!

Question: Would there have still been a boat deck outboard of the funnel at this time? I don't think Lex lost hers until the 8" guns were removed.

Bob

[ModelMonkey]

That looks awesome, Steve!

Question: Would there have still been a boat deck outboard of the funnel at this time? I don't think Lex lost hers until the 8" guns were removed.

Bob

Thanks, Bob! Thanks again to Dick J and Tracy White whose past research and photos helped make this design a reality.

This photo indicates that the boat deck and associated davits are present as late as December, 1941.

[ModelMonkey]

....was wondering if I should just put the Fujimi Lex and Sara in a spars box and purchase the Tamiya kit or keep the Fujimi and try to build a decent model from the two I have.

Roswell

Great question.

If you intend a wartime Saratoga, the Tamiya kit is the far better choice.

Fujimi's Saratoga is a good kit to start with if you want to build the ship as it appeared only in 1941. The Fujimi kit has features that are a mix of time periods.
Features that are right for 1941:
- the hull does not have the wartime starboard stability blister
- correct, widened flight deck forward but original aft round-down

features that are incorrect for 1941
- wartime cut-down conning tower (the 1941 conning tower had the large fighting top and tripod)
- the kit's funnel looks a bit tall, does not have the large AA platform, and the funnel is incorrectly shaped (it should be eliptical, not slab-sided, and the funnel cap shape is flat (it should have a complex curve)
- wartime sponsons and AA fit (missing 5"/25 mounts entirely)
- 5"/38 Mk.32 twin mounts, installed in 1942

Therefore, it has the right hull and flight deck to start with if you intend to model the ship in 1941. But to be most accurate for 1941, the conning tower and funnel should be replaced with proper 1941 conning tower and funnel as well as replacing the 5"/38 twin mounts with a set of four 8" turrets. Leave the wartime AA sponsons off.

[Vlad]

I'm halfway through a Tamiya Saratoga build and I couldn't resist the lure of the dazzle. I know she didn't go to war painted like that but from what I can gather online she arrived at Pearl in dazzle in September 1944 and was repainted to Ms.21 in November 1944 as part of repairs after getting rammed by her plane guard destroyer. During this time she was training for night ops.

Have I got that right? Is it therefore correct to show her in dazzle with the night fighter Hellcats and Avengers on deck e.g. training off Hawaii in late September or early October 1944?

[Dick J]

Fujimi's Saratoga is a good kit to start with if you want to build the ship as it appeared only in 1941. The Fujimi kit has features that are a mix of time periods.
Features that are right for 1941:
- the hull does not have the wartime starboard stability blister
- correct, widened flight deck forward but original aft round-down

I don't know if I would ever characterize the Fujimi as a "good kit" The hull shape is totally wrong, even if the blister is left off. However, there is something more relevant from this post that needs to be corrected. During her 1941 refit, when the forward flightdeck was widened and the AA gallery added around the funnel, her flightdeck was lengthed aft (with the new round-down). That was not part of her 1942 rebuild - it was already in place. Also, unlike Lexington, her after quad 1.1" mounts did not displace any of the .50 cal MGs. The tubs you see after her May '42 refit were unchanged from her '41 fit, a relatively short distance aft of the after 5" galleries. She had 3" guns when the tubs were added in early '41, and had just exchanged those for the 1.1's in a quick November update. She retained the .50's until the '42 overhaul, and the platforms on either side of the after flightdeck held 4 guns each. (Lexington's platforms originally had 4 per side aft, but half of these .50's were displaced to add her way-aft 1.1" tubs.) The rafts were added on the stack in November as well, and she probably painted into MS-11 at that time. She was just picking up her airgroup from San Diego when Pearl Harbor was attacked.

[ModelMonkey]

....I don't know if I would ever characterize the Fujimi as a "good kit"....

Totally agree, but that's not what I wrote. I wrote, "...good kit to start with...".

Allow me to clarify my opinion. If you want to build a 1941 Saratoga, the old Fujimi kit, for all its faults (and there are many), is a better starting point from a cost and hull and flight deck surgery perspective. You won't have to remove the hull blister (unlike Tamiya) and you won't have to modify the flight deck shape forward and scratch new sponsons there (unlike Trumpeter).

Concur that the Fujimi hull is misshapen. And I stand corrected on having to extend the Fujimi flight deck round down. In addition to extending it aft and rounding it, the supporting structure below would have to be added, too.

For those who enjoy conversions, including hull surgery and scratchbuilding, and like Saratoga's attractive 1941 appearance, and if budget allows, IMHO, start with Tamiya, remove the hull stability blister, and replace the island, funnel and turrets, scratch the boat deck next to the funnel, then modify the AA fit as needed. Photographic references in the public domain for the ship in 1941 are tough to come by. But Dick J can provide advice on modifying the AA fit. He knows this ship.

3DModelparts.com has some nice 1/700 scale weapons.

The other items are available:

Island: http://www.shapeways.com/product/WKLQ4G ... d=58181411
Funnel: http://www.shapeways.com/product/TL6BWP ... d=60201465
Turrets: http://www.shapeways.com/product/37DF8V ... d=59003894

[Tracy White]

Is it therefore correct to show her in dazzle with the night fighter Hellcats and Avengers on deck e.g. training off Hawaii in late September or early October 1944?

You could probably "get away with that" but when she was based there she was essentially the training carrier "on call" for aircraft in the area in general. Examples from her October 1944 War Diary:

October 1 - "At 1330 Task Unit 19-4.2 Day Carrier Unit, U.S.S. Saratoga, Clark, Mitchell, separated and commenced day qualifications and refresher landings for pilots of air groups 3 and 81. Made 71 landings. 5 barrier crashes occurred without serious damage."

October 2 - "Conduction qualification and refresher landings for Air Groups 4, 81, 90, 82. 173 landings made. 4 minor crashes."

October 3 - "In the morning Air Group 4 simulated attack and landed aboard. In the afternoon Air Group 81 did same."

October 4 - "At 0830 Air Group 3 landed aboard after simulated attack and was launched at 1130. At 1330 Air Group VC 82 attacked, landed aboard, launched and landed and then was launched to provide combat patrol while VC 83 made simulated attack. VC 83 made two landings each."

She returned to Pearl the next day and stayed until the 12 and the next two days are of potential interest to the discussion:

October 12 - "At 1330 commenced refresher landings for pilots of Air Group 100. At 1630 gave day refresher to pilots of Air Group 80 that were to make night landings."

October 13 - "At 0430 commenced night qualifications for pilots of Air Group 80. At 0504 an SB2C-3 crashed into stack, overturned, and caught fire. No injury to crew but minor injury to three deck crewmen. Salvage operations consumed remaining darkness. At 0800 commenced day operations, refresher for Air Group 100 and pilots of Air Group 80 scheduled for night work."

So it might be a bit of a free-for-all. It's very possible/likely she trained with the night air group, but I don't have the time to go through all of her war diaries to confirm that or when at this point. I'd say "do it the way you want and dare them to prove you wrong."

[Vlad]

Thanks Tracy. I'm not dead set on using the night fighters, that gives me a good idea of what might be plausible on deck. In any case I'm not interested in packing the flight deck, landing qualifications sound like a fun little idea to get a few planes on. I have some spare Hellcats from another project and I can always sand off the little radar blister on the night ones Tamiya provides. Would the regular fighters be in three-tone at this time or overall gloss sea blue?

Steve, Dick, if I may, it seems a 1941 Saratoga is quite a bit of work regardless of the starting point but what about using Trumpeter's pre-war Saratoga? You get the right round-down, boat deck, 8" guns and most of the bridge (just need to extend the signal plot). Then the only major surgery is the front of the flight deck and associated sponsons.

[ModelMonkey]

...Steve, Dick, if I may, it seems a 1941 Saratoga is quite a bit of work regardless of the starting point but what about using Trumpeter's pre-war Saratoga? You get the right round-down, boat deck, 8" guns and most of the bridge (just need to extend the signal plot). Then the only major surgery is the front of the flight deck and associated sponsons.

I haven't seen the Trumpeter kit in hand, but, IMHO, a conversion from that kit is certainly doable. I may be wrong, but photos of that kit suggest that Trumpeter's hull is better shaped than the old Fujimi hull (who'd a thunk it?).

As Dick J pointed out, for 1941 you'll have to extend the round down aft - my error in reporting otherwise. But since most of the conversion work using the Trumpeter kit has to do with the flight deck and forward sponsons and swapping out the funnel, it appears to have much potential for a good-looking build for those who would enjoy the challenge.

Thanks to Dick J, Tracy White and other experts here, and that a "Booklet of General Plans" of the ship is available in the public domain, other drawings from the Floating Drydock can be had, we know enough about the ship to make excellent models of her as she appeared at just about any time throughout her life.

The ship changed appearance much and there is probably a year or two that every fan of her fancies. Personally, 1944 (barroom brawler) and 1941 (sleek and functional) are my favorites.

Best wishes on your '44 build. The camo is sweet for that ship. As you know, I'm building one from scratch in 1/350 for that very time (link in signature) and really enjoying it. Based on much advice from Tracy, I'm tempted to show a mix of aircraft colors, maybe with a few radar-equipped Hellcats. Given his amazing Lex diorama, Marijn would probably model a dramatic barrier crash, perhaps the October 13th Helldiver crash into the funnel.

[Tracy White]

Would the regular fighters be in three-tone at this time or overall gloss sea blue?

GENERALLY SPEAKING planes were kept in the camouflage they came from the factory in, so F6F-3s and TBM-1s would remain tri-color and F6F-5s and TBM-3s would be Glossy Sea Blue. GENERALLY SPEAKING squadrons would train in the older airframes and the newer ones would be sent to the front. Just to simplify things, I only pulled the October 3 list.

CVG-3 (Saratoga, based at Pu'unene, Maui [Incidentally used to drive by that every day when I lived on Maui]):
F6F-5 x 35
F6F-3P x 2
SB2C-3 x 18
TBM-1C x 18

CVG-4 (not assigned a carrier but based at Hilo, Big Island of Hawaii)
F6F-3 x 50
SB2C-1C x 21
TBM-1C x 19

CVG(N)-90 (not assigned a carrier but based at Barbers Point, Oahu)
F6F-3 x 7
F6F-3N x 6
F6F-5N x 16
"VTN" is listed but no aircraft assigned

CVG-81 (not assigned a carrier but based at Pu'unene, Maui)
F6F-5 x 55
SB2C-3 x 29
TBM-1C x 21

CVG-82 is listed on the East Coast on Bennington, which didn't hit the Pacific until 1945, so I'm not sure which Air Group 82 Saratoga was actually talking about on October 2nd. Most likely VC-82, which is specifically mentioned on the 4th, and which is listed out of order on the second, leading me to believe they viewed it differently.

Composite Group (VC) 82 (Assigned Coral Sea but based at Kaneohe, Oahu)
FM2 x 16
TBM-1C x 12

Composite Group (VC) 83 (Assigned Corregidor Sea but based at Kaneohe, Oahu)
FM2 x 16
TBM-1C x 12

[Vlad]

Thank you, most helpful! I like Steve's mixed group idea combined with the "prove me wrong" suggestion. At any rate I have 6 Dragon Hellcats, 4 Tamiya night Hellcats and 4 Tamiya night Avengers that I can turn in to any mix of F6F-3/5 and TBM-1/3. I just finished spotting a full Midway strike, 14 planes is quite enough for this project

[MartinJQuinn]

List of available kits and gallery entries added to Page 1, under the text of the first post.

[Jack G]

Model Monkey - thank you so much for those bridge diagrams! I will choose one of them for my Sara (depending on the airwing: I bought surplus Trumpeter aircraft kits, and whichever "has the most" will get the Sara of that time). Hopefully it will be the version with the 'E' on the funnel...

I recently discovered we have a Boeing navy fighter in our local area (in Oz - will find out exactly what type later) - so this has given me the inspiration to finish my kit. Yes, putting the hulls together was time consuming and I just left it after many hours.

One question: the Trumpeter diagrams look to have the waterline set too low - inspecting photos of the ship see the black bootstrip begin just under the upper wedge of the torpedo protection, and both Sara and Lex floating there. Has anyone else noticed this?

Another question: was there a uniform US Navy bootstrip thickness? I know some of the RN ones were quite thick, but only have Sara in dry dock to go on. I measured about 1/4 of the depth of the antifoul to the keel in one pic, and much thinner in another. Any tips?

[branston_pickle]

Hi. Inexperienced modeler & first post here, building Tamiya's CV-3 release.

I'm planning on the simple color scheme as in the kit instructions. Tamiya calls out XF-50 (field blue) on the horizontal surfaces of decks, gun tubs, etc.

two questions:

1) Is this accurate? I've been searching to verify, but can't tell for sure.
2) if so, how to build up the to simplify painting? Shoot everything Navy Blue and then hand paint horizontal surfaces, then assemble?

Thanks for reading.

[Tracy White]

Welcome aboard!

The official paint colors for that would be 5-N Navy Blue and 20-B Deck Blue. 20-B was designed "to match" 5-N, but in reality there was a different appearance since it was a different formula and was also painted over a wood deck (mostly) instead of metal. Paints to match exist in enamel (Colourcoats and Model Master) and Acrylic (Life Color and Model Master) so unless you are married to the Tamiya brand it might be easiest to go with another company.

[Jgab]

Hi:

I have one question about the navigation or position lights of the ship in the 1930's..

Where are they located? In the Saratoga bridge area....where?
It's a tiny detail that I can't find....thank you for the help....

[anj4de]

Welcome aboard!

The official paint colors for that would be 5-N Navy Blue and 20-B Deck Blue. 20-B was designed "to match" 5-N, but in reality there was a different appearance since it was a different formula and was also painted over a wood deck (mostly) instead of metal. Paints to match exist in enamel (Colourcoats and Model Master) and Acrylic (Life Color and Model Master) so unless you are married to the Tamiya brand it might be easiest to go with another company.

I have used White Ensign enamels for my ships so far. On MS-21...I guess that is what we are talking about...if I understand it correctly 5-S and later 5-N were both mixed on site using a recepy available for them using the same base componants...sometimes less, sometimes more blue pigments? What works for me is...since it is known that the samller the scale the more the original paint has to be lightened up...I use WE 5-S Sea Blue right out of the can for 1/700 5-N. The result is a ship looking very close to the apperance on those nice Kodachrome photos from WWII. This apperance may not be absolutly true to what they really looked like (who can tell today?) but matching those color photos is close enough for me.

cheers
Uwe

[Tracy White]

have one question about the navigation or position lights of the ship in the 1930's..

Where are they located? In the Saratoga bridge area....where?

I don't have any for aircraft carriers, but I ran across a random collection of running and signal lights drawings in Puget Sound Naval Shipyard records at the National Archives branch in Seattle. Perhaps those could be of some help for you in figuring out where to look or how to "best guess" it.

[MartinJQuinn]

Saratoga, April 1943

[Don Grasmick]

Greeting my friends, I have a tech question on the pre-war 1936 Saratoga. I have the Warship pictorial #11 (Lex class) but its not being specific enough in answering two questions for me. I was humbly hoping you all could help.

1. What year was the vertical black stripe painted on Sara? I'm doing her in 36' guise and cannot seem to find the answer.

2. Again, what year was the deck stained to that god ugly mahogany color? I just would really like to not put that awful color on my wood deck if I don't have to.