tjstoneman wrote:PENELOPE's brown and white scheme is also explained in Ed Gordon H.M.S. "Pepperpot!": The "Penelope" in World War Two (Robert Hale Ltd: 15 Aug 1985). According to Alan Raven, she wore a multi coloured scheme BEFORE she grounded in April, thus TWO different types of camouflage within two months.
Having just read through the HMS Pepperpot book first chapter, which covers from being in the Med to getting back to the Clyde for repairs mid May 40, it seems to me that the Alan Raven quote needs to be interpreted carefully. After sailing from Scapa on 7th April, Penelope was employed in open waters against the larger German units before first going closer inshore on 10th April as part of the back up to the RN destroyers attacking the German units in Narvik at dawn and she was then involved with the aftermath of that and then being told to prepare to lead the next attack into Narvik which she said couldn't be ready until the 12th. Before that went any further on the 11th she was sent to follow up reports of German support ships and grounded at 1441. The damage was so extensive that she could barely stay afloat let alone move without assistance and in military terms all she could do was very limited AA in self defence until temporarily patched sufficiently to be towed back to UK. The Alan Raven bit about "lulls in the fighting etc" doesn't seem to match the actual situation at all - there was no period then where an air threat close inshore had developed and I doubt Penelope dropped her anchor until the passage to "Cripples Creek" had completed. It is also thrown into question by the three photos in the Pepperpot book clearly showing the port side with the pattern used in the WEM print plus two shots close to while afloat (and listing) and being repaired for tow. It seems to me any shot taken in drydock after this adds nothing new apart from maybe showing the starboard side and can only be the scheme depicted by WEM anyway.
The Pepperpot account is specific about the brown and white colours for the makeshift scheme and it being varied as the time progressed and the snow on the hills melted. It would be interesting to know more about the likely paint stocks carried onboard at the time - perhaps some of our heavyweight camouflage experts could comment - as a complete repaint of the ship would require considerable stocks well beyond that needed for touching up weather damage etc. Perhaps the raw materials to make up white and brown were already available onboard as they were used in other colours? Otherwise did they get paint from the Norwegians that were assisting with all the ships at Skjelfjord. If the answer is no to both, then you are left starting to think that whatever Penelope was wearing when she sailed from Scapa must have been quite similar to what is shown in the WEM print. But that seems so much of a one-off and very different from other depictions of the Scapa Flotta scheme that it is hard to accept - the scheme reported by Alan Raven seems more likely but doesn't fit his narrative.
It would be very interesting to clarify what scheme Penelope had on sailing from Scapa as that would be how she was on the afternoon of 10th April and at an important what-if point in naval history when a decision for Penelope to promptly reattack the german destroyers at Narvik could have considerably changed how the Norwegian campaign developed.
Assuming IF Penelope was wearing the Flotta Scheme, which contained brown and white (and light gray, light green, and black) up until being grounded, could the grays, greens, and black have been overpainted with more white leaving only the brown and white areas as pictured?
If an argument can be made that Penelope had been repainted in Home Fleet Gray before leaving Scapa, then wouldn't a temporary scheme of white over the gray have been more appropriate than white and brown against the backdrop of the steep bare-sided cliffs of the Norwegian fiords? Just trying to rule out the possibility of the Home Fleet Gray scheme.
From what I can understand, Aurora�s 1945 fit was primarily due to her 1943 refit. At the end of Aerthusa�s 1944 repair/refit, was she very similar to Aurora�s fit with the exception quad 40s replacing the quad 2 pounders? Where can I find a resource for Arethusa's 1944 fit? Thanks, Rich
Regarding the camouflage of Penelope in 1940: a photo in HMS Pepperpot shows that the light colour (white) was added before she got the heavy list, because the dirt is clearly over the light colour. This indicates the camouflage was NOT applied during the repairs, but before. But when? Still in Scapa Flow? Could it be an experimental camouflage for coastal areas, perhaps even both for winter in Scapa Flow (is there snow??) and in Norway...
I'm Building Flyhawk's HMS Penelope, prior to the Norwegian campaign. Was the catapult telescopic and which is the correct aircraft for her in the first few months of the war, the Seafox or Walrus?
According to Theo Ballance The Squadrons and Units of the Fleet Air Arm (Tonbridge: Air-Britain, 2016), she carried an EIIIH catapult from completion until it was removed during her repairs after the Norwegian campaign (August 1940). The "E" means extendible.
She was allocated one Seafox (serial K8588) throughout.
Hi guys,
I was thinking about buying HMS Aurora and backdating it to 1944 landing in southern France or maybe even further back in time, but I can't find any sources on how Aurora looked like back then. Links on the first page of this topic aren't very precise either.
Are changes in light AA the only ones to occur on Aurora in the last year of war? And what would her camouflage be in 1944? I absolutely love Admiralty Standard Scheme, but I don't think Aurora could be painted that way during operation Dragoon.
But most, if not all RN cruisers from this period had steel decks atop their aft deckhouses, with just the working areas around any AA guns there covered by wood planking. See, for instance, these pictures of HMAS Sydney: https://www.navy.gov.au/hmas-sydney-ii-part-5 (scroll down a bit to get to the photos).
Norman Ough's plans of HMS Penelope seem to show the deck covered completely by wooden planks (though it is hard to tell here):
So would anyone have any photos or reliable plans of HMS Penelope that could clarify this matter?
Any assistance in this matter would be greatly appreciated, as I hoped that the Flyhawk HMS Penelope would be a quick build, but as usual, complications quickly pile up... sigh, LOL!
Fivi_1241 wrote:Hi guys,
I was thinking about buying HMS Aurora and backdating it to 1944 landing in southern France or maybe even further back in time, but I can't find any sources on how Aurora looked like back then. Links on the first page of this topic aren't very precise either.
Are changes in light AA the only ones to occur on Aurora in the last year of war? And what would her camouflage be in 1944? I absolutely love Admiralty Standard Scheme, but I don't think Aurora could be painted that way during operation Dragoon.
Aurora was part of Operation Slapstick, the allies occupation of Taranto, and was a cameraship for a assigned film crew. There is something like 30 mins of footage that you can comb through that may give you the camoflauge pattern aurora wore in 1943.
British ships are known to have been painted three different colors below the waterline during WW2: gray, black and red. However, it is unclear when and what color was every particular ship painted. Therefore, I would like to ask if anyone can confirm exactly what color was HMS Aurora painted below the waterline as of 1945. I need this info to paint the model of said ship by Flyhawk.
You might like to read the attachment to Dick's 8.58am Post of December 2020 on the "RN Ships' bottoms and boot-topping 1914 1950" thread as a starter on this one.
Hi HJ1985
I have a few Wright & Logan photos of her entering Portsmouth in 1945, their good close ups from various angles and I cant see any pom-pom director and type 282
graham wrote:Hi HJ1985
I have a few Wright & Logan photos of her entering Portsmouth in 1945, their good close ups from various angles and I cant see any pom-pom director and type 282
Graham
Thank you Graham, this is really helpful. Avagoodweekend!
drasticplastic wrote:So what were the colors and camo pattern BEFORE grounding, or at the beginning of the Second Battle for Narvik? Want to paint her at that period.
Overall Home Fleet Gray?? How boring!
Attachments
Life is boring sometimes. Penelope on the rocks!!
Mikko Saarela
Measure twice, cut once. Measuring once could be quicker...
Penelope run aground off Fleinv�r Light and was towed by Eskimo to Skjelfjord.
The photo is labelled with tug "Sterkodderin". Geiir Haarr mentions in The Battle for Norway the Norwegian repair vessel St�rkodder. This ship arrived at the 13th of April in Skjelfjord - i.e. if the label refers to that ship and is correct, it would have been taken on the 13th of April or after. That would indicate that before she run aground, she was painted Home Fleet Grey... Really boring...
