Calling all Butler-class & Rudderow-class DE fans

[JimRussell]

I have had a long standing ambition to build the seven escorts of Taffy Three. Some time ago, before Trumpeter released their square bridge Fletcher class, I converted three Tamiya Fletchers to the square bridge mid war fit (DD-532 Heerman, DD-533 Hoel and DD-557 Johnston). When Trumpeter released the 3" DE England I had hopes they would follow up with a 5" Butler/Rudderow (they have the same hull). In order to force the issue I finally gave up and converted four Englands to the four Taffy Three Butler class ships DE-339 John C. Butler, DE-341 Raymond, DE-405 Dennis and De-413 Samuel B. Roberts.

The conversion was fun. I removed detail / filled holes on the main deck with the exception of the extreme bow and stern, mooring bits and the mid ships deck house guide rails. Three wood pieces made up the forward superstructure (see the plan in the first picture). The mid ships deck house and funnel uptake had to be shortened at the forward end. Corsair Armada 5" gun houses were modified by beveling the rear top edge to provide clearance for projectiles fired from the hedgehog ASW weapon. Only the forward mount needed this modification but the aft mount was also modified to standardize construction. All other details were built using plans published in "Destroyer Escorts of WWII" (Floating Drydock) or Squadrons "Destroyer Escorts in Action".

Paint. My first step was to go to Snyder & Shorts camo database for the 1944 Butler class DE's

339 .... 32/11d ...and... 22
341 .... 32/2c
405 .... 32/22d
413 .... 32/22d ...and... 21

My first thought was "wow..maybe a 21, a22 and two dazzles". This thought was the seed of heresy. Further looking indicated that all for ships were in dazzle at the time of the "Battle off Samar" but by that time I was firmly in the camp of variety over accuracy.

Jim

[JimRussell]

More pics

[Devin]

Jim,

That's amazing work. I wondered if that Trumpeter kit could be modified in such a way. Now I know!

-Devin

[Cadman]

Fantastic work, What an awesome collection.

[MartinJQuinn]

Cool stuff, Jim. I'm tellin' ya - you should start making masters for one of the resin companies!

[JimRussell]

Cadman, thanks for fixing the post.

Devin, Cadman and Martin, thanks for the kind words. I find that I prefer the "look" of the low bridge 5" DE's when compared to their 3" high bridge cousins.

Jim

[fred_sirois]

I don't know if this is the proper thread to ask this question, but I'll give it a shot.

I'm planning on building a collection of the basic types of DE configurations in 1/700 scale in plastic if possible and in resin if necessary. I think I have everything except a Rudderow conversion to an APD. As far as I know, no-one manufactures such a beast.

To my question: what would be the simplest kit bash to create a Rudderow-type APD in 1/700 scale? Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

Fred Sirois

[JimRussell]

Fred,

There were two different types of 306' APD's, one based on the Rudderow type (5" - low bridge) and the other on the Buckley (3" - high bridge). I am not a 1/700 expert, but it appears that there is a Pit-Road - Skywave plastic kit for both of these.

Conversions, from the bow aft

Rudderow type - Widen the mid-ships deck house to hull width, add boats, four 20mm, two twin 40mm and a tripod cargo mast.

Buckley type - Replace #1 3" with a 5" in a house (same location as the Rudderow), remove hedgehog, replace #2 3" with a twin 40mm, widen the mid-ships deckhouse to hull width, add boats, four 20mm, two twin 40mm and a "lattice" cargo mast (look for pictures of the two different types of cargo masts).

Jim

[fred_sirois]

Thanks Jim,

I am aware of the differences between the two DE-based APDs. I have the SkyWave Rudderow kits (two ships in one box), so maybe I'll give that a try. I also have the NIKO resin Buckley derived APD. If it wasn't so expensive, I might have gotten another one of those and tried to mix and match with the SkyWave Rudderow.

I do know what will happen. Once I finally decide to do the kit-bash thing and am almost done, some manufacturer will produce one. That is the way this works, isn't it?

Fred

[les]

That's the way it works. But, you can always feel good that you did it on your own and it can be interesting to see if you did the job as good as the new kit, better than the new kit or worse than the new kit.

[Graham Boak]

I'm interested in doing a French DE, as described in the Sq Signal book. Perhaps unsurprisingly, this source appears to be self-contradictory. The artwork shows one retaining the torpedoes: the text says otherwise. The text says the tubes were replaced by 40mm - I assumed this meant the 4 single 40mm fit but the photos don't show this - they appear to show just an additional 20mm zareba (presumably on each side). One of the two photos shows a mainmast in addition to the foremast. The text for the other says mainmast but means foremast - or is this normal US nomenclature?

I'd appreciate advice on the fit of these French vessels.

[Sebastien Lausdat]

Graham
From the French had no torpedoes.
They belonged to the class Cannon.
For information, I am building Tunisien (see the link below).
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=45205&start=0
Otherwise, contact me via email or mp, I can surely help you.
Kind regards
Sebastien

[Rick E Davis]

Graham,

To an extent the answer may depend on WHEN you are modeling your French lend-leased DE (most returned to USN in 1964). The photos available of these ships (DE106-111) on Navsource.org show several different configurations into the 1950's. I saw at least one with the late war three twin 40-mm configuration in the 1950's, but many DE's were updated after the war in the USN and foreign navies. I didn't see any with two or four single 40-mm mounts ... but that may not mean that some couldn't have been modified with them. None of the photos show torpedo tubes.

The USN went on a mass rearmament of Atlantic-based DE's in 1944 in response to German Air Force anti-shipping actions in the MED, by removing the torpedo tubes and adding four single 40-mm mounts. I don't have much insight on the French DE's. Jean Couhat in his book "French Warships of WWII" from the Ian Allan "pocket" books on WWII navies, he lists the twin 40-mm mount and 12-20mm guns which matches the photos I can make out. The 12-20mm guns are: four before the bridge, four aft of the stack, two in place of the Torpedo Tubes, and two on the fantail. Other than the two that replaced the TT mount, the locations were pretty standard for a Cannon class.

[Sr. Gopher]

Jim, I just think you need a water base and a couple of Jeep Carriers!!!!! Excellent Work on the ships.

[Guido]

Hi!
I am too trying to convert the Trumpeter England kit into a Butler Class.
I am having a hard time finding detailed pictures of the port side superstructure.
Can anybody help?
TIA
Guido

[Rick E Davis]

Guido,

What time period are you interested in having photos of BUTLER's? Do you which configuration? Do you have a particular ship in mind?

I have a few images of DE's but most are post-WWII with a few WWII images, including BUTLER-class.

[Guido]

Hi, Rick!
Thank you fo your reply!
Thus far I have not committed to any particular ship, so every bit of help and info is appreciated.
However, I should like to depict a ship still carrying the torpedo mount.

You can contact me off-board at guido.hopp(at)gmail.com.

Cheers,
Guido

[Rick E Davis]

Guido,

OK. Well I don't have many WWII era photos with the torpedo tubes, but here are a couple of BUTLER DE's with PORTSIDE views that may help.

The first two images are of DE-369 THADDEUS PARKER taken on 23 May 1952 after being recommisioned for the Korean War. But, she is basically in WWII rig without the Anti-Kamikaze MOD of an aft quad 40-mm mount and two amidships twin 40-mm mounts that all DE's were updated to if they were recommisioned for the KW. The torpedo tubes were removed, but you can see the foundation ring.






The next set of images are of DE-444 GOSS taken on 2 March 1945, the second two images are close-ups of the deckhouse area.








The last image is of GOSS in 1955 after getting the late war mod ... minus 20-mm guns ... and was typical of non-ASW special versions of the BUTLER DE's post-WWII.

[Guido]

Rick-

These are fantastic, man!
I can't thank you enough.

Is this the an accomodation ladder or are these the projectors for the K gun?

Cheers,
Guido

[Rick E Davis]

Guido,

I think you are asking about the vertical items behind the K-Guns and their reload racks. They appear to be the mortar projectors for throwing the depth charges stored on the bulkhead.