Calling all Fletcher-class (DD-445) fans

[Sauragnmon]

I wonder if you could find O'Bannon's tabulated record of movement or something, that might give you an idea of her timing on refits and equipment.

[Secondo]

I wonder if you could find O'Bannon's tabulated record of movement or something, that might give you an idea of her timing on refits and equipment.

The DANFS article should be avaiable, I'll check it out ASAP However, I feel I have already enough material to proceed; I found the photos of the fantail of Nicholas with the 3 Oerlikons, which I suppose was the same arrangement as O'Bannon, and this dark spot is gone
I just have a doubt about the radar antenna that had to be on top of the mast, I hope it was the SC...

[Rick E Davis]

O'BANNON's air search radar didn't change from her commissioning until her overhaul/refit to five twin 40-mm mounts in late 1943. So, the photos of her from that time frame should be fine.

Here is a view of O'BANNON reportedly taken on 20 June 1943 and a blow-up of the fantail area that to me shows the 20-mm guns located there are at least roughly in the same configuration as the ones on NICHOLAS. (Note: the original print cuts-off as seen ... dang)

[Secondo]

All right, the radar was surely the one that I hoped for, as I have two SCs but only one SC 4 that I need for my Killen. Concerning the fantail, I will submit photos of the most probable arrangement that I will work out before to start glueing anything
It's strange to see that the searchlight platform's canvas and the blast bags were not dyed.

[PeteM]

Gentlemen, I'm trying to located photos or drawings of the raised centerline 20mm tub on square-bridge Fletchers. I've found 1 or 2 close ups (including 1 of Abbot several pages back) but would like to get some other looks before attempting to replicate it. One other question: it appears (in the long distance photos I've found) that these tubs fairly standard. Is this so?

[Rick E Davis]

Pete,

Commonality depends on which type of bridge ... round or square. The Round bridge units appear to have used the same platform (I suspect that this platform is the same or close to the one used on BENSON-GLEAVES as well). The square bridge units had some development and builder differences over time. There were problems experienced with the new open bridge layout, so there were several different modifications made to the platform-bridge mating trying to fix the problem.

Without going back and finding it ... which ship are you modeling again? I have some close-up photos of various units and may have drawings of the platforms ... at least the ones used on BIW built units.

[Dick J]

Actually, some round-bridge types had an alternative config for the raised 20MM.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0557510.jpg

compared to

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0551402.jpg

Round or square, you need to find pics of the actual ship to be absolutely sure.

[PeteM]

Pete,

Commonality depends on which type of bridge ... round or square. The Round bridge units appear to have used the same platform (I suspect that this platform is the same or close to the one used on BENSON-GLEAVES as well). The square bridge units had some development and builder differences over time. There were problems experienced with the new open bridge layout, so there were several different modifications made to the platform-bridge mating trying to fix the problem.

Without going back and finding it ... which ship are you modeling again? I have some close-up photos of various units and may have drawings of the platforms ... at least the ones used on BIW built units.

Rick, I have a small aftermarket kit to convert the Tamiya Fletcher to a square bridge unit. My plan was to keep the forward 20's rather than change the molded on tubs to 40mm tubs, but am willing to have a go at scratching the center line 20mm tub. I figured I could also scavenge the midship 40mm tub/clipping room (if necessary) and aft 40mm tub/structure parts from a Trumpy Sullivans kit. After looking through photos on the Destroyer History site to narrow down my choices I went to Navsource to find some more detail if possible. I've pretty much narrowed down things to either the Brownson (DD518), Hazelwood (DD531), Hoel (DD533) or Mc Cord(DD534). I've got no real tie to any of them and whichever I can get the most evidence for. I appreciate any help you can give me.

[Rick E Davis]

All of those were Bethlehem - SF built units, except for Brownson, which was a Bethlehem - Staten Island built unit. So the photos of anyone of them will hold up for all of them. But, except for Abner Read (DD-526), the Bethlehem-SF built units were upgraded to the five twin 40-mm configuration prior to going to the South Pacific. However, Brownson (DD-518) and Daly (DD-519) from Bethlehem-SI did serve in the South Pacific for sometime in the three twin 40-mm and ten 20-mm configuration. However, I see a problem for you. When they went from three 20-mm guns before the bridge to two twin 40-mm mounts, except for three square bridge units ... they had to cut-back the bridge for the 40-mm mounts. The conversion kit you are going to use is representative of the POST CONVERSION to the twin 40-mm mounts. To be correct for the three twin 40-mm mounts and ten 20-mm gun configuration, the 01 deck bridge deckhouse would need to be made larger and the Nav bridge needs to be modified.

Look at the drawings below and the images to get an idea of how things differed. The bridge-platform interface was different on these ships. It appears to me that the Bethlehem-SI units looked more like Abbot than Hazelwood. Oh, I have no idea of why Brownson's 20-mm tub has been cut open (or was it damaged and is being repaired?) like that.

DD-531 Hazelwood on 24 June 1943


DD-518 Brownson on 13 September 1943


DD-629 Abbot fitting-out in April 1943


Drawing of DD-629 Abbot's bridge with 20-mm guns


Drawing of DD-650 Caperton's bridge with the twin 40-mm mounts.

[PeteM]

Thanks Rick for taking the time to share your knowledge. Looking at the drawings you posted I can see the size difference between the pre- and post-refit deck houses, and that difference shouldn't be too hard to make up. However I can't seem to make out the modifications to the navigation bridge that you mentioned. Can you shed some light there?

[Dick J]

Compare the front-face splinter screen on the open bridge. With the 20MM forward, the part of the front of the open bridge that was perpendicular to the centerline was wider. It matched the shape of the O1 superstructure beneath it. The angled sides of the front were shorter and more angled off the perpendicular. When the 40MM were installed, the front of the open bridge was trimmed back to improve the arcs of fire, leaving the narrower front.

[PeteM]

Thanks Dick, I think I see it now. So the difference is in the angle of the forward portion of the bridge bulwark. As far as I can tell there are no changes to the bridge house itself. Am I seeing this right?

[Rick E Davis]

Pete,

Dick is right. Here is a drawing showing the rough angle changes to the NAV bridge and to the 01 deckhouse. Below the drawing is an image of HAZELWOOD in the process of having her bridge modified. The bridge/pilothouse was not altered, but equipment on the NAV bridge was rearranged to make room for the Mk 51 directors.

[PeteM]

Thanks again Rick. That drawing helps a ton. I think I've decided to go with Daly, which at least saw action in this configuration. Plus, that picture of Abbot will be a huge help since they're both Bethlehem-Staten Island ships (I did get that right, right?). I got this conversion kit from a guy who offers several different Fletcher related items on E-Bay. Since you apparently are aware of it, I was just wondering about it. My concern was that he might be bootlegging these parts somehow and I wouldn't want to support something like that. Do you know anything about him or his items?

[Rick E Davis]

Abbot was built by Bath Iron Works (BIW). Brownson and Daly were Beth.-SI built. It just appears that those two builders yards were closer in construction of the subject platform and bridge bulwark face than to Beth.-SF.

The only conversion set I'm aware of was made by Tom's Modelworks (I think he was the one), but it has been out of production for awhile.

[Jimmy Conway]

Pete,

Dick is right. Here is a drawing showing the rough angle changes to the NAV bridge and to the 01 deckhouse. Below the drawing is an image of HAZELWOOD in the process of having her bridge modified. The bridge/pilothouse was not altered, but equipment on the NAV bridge was rearranged to make room for the Mk 51 directors.

Did USS Irwin DD 794 suffer this mod in the bridge too? I mean about Original and Revised Navigating Bridge Bulwark......

Does anybody know any about it?
Thanks: Jimmy

[Jimmy Conway]

Some Fletchers in the 60's and 70"s were fitted with sonar an/sqs 29.
Does anybody please have images of this sonar dome?
I made an extent search in the web , but I've got nothing, nothing in the Navsource, and either images from Google, or books....
Read here about my research: http://www.naval.com.br/ngb/S/S006/S006.htm

Thanks in advance: Jimmy

[Dick J]

Considering the timeframe for Irwin's (DD-794) commissioning, she almost certainly completed with the bridge already modified. In lengthy building programs like the Fletcher's (commissioned over a couple of years rather than a couple of months), features that were mods on earlier ships were built-in on the later models. This was especially true for the 40MM upgrades. Ships completing in the latter months of 1943 already had the 5 twin 40MM. Irwin commissioned in early '44.

[Rick E Davis]

Dick is correct, Irwin was completed with the final Square-Bridge configuration. The break-even point for when ALL Square-Bridge Fletchers were completed with the final bridge, was ROUGHLY in the September-October 1943 period (for some reason Federal SB&DD was slower at transiting to the new configuration). Most of the units completed by the builders with the first style Square-Bridge as far back as in May 1943 were modified with the forward twin 40-mm mounts PRIOR to seeing operational service (normally by a Navy Yard). I have found photos of several Fletchers being modified AFTER they had already received the earlier Square-Bridge style during construction, but well before they were delivered. Irwin was launched on 31 October 1943, so she more than likely always had the final style Square-Bridge. There is a good chance that roughly half of all the Square-Bridge Fletchers started out during construction with the earlier Square-Bridge style before modification for two forward twin 40-mm mounts. I don't have exact numbers or which units were modified when. It really didn't matter prior to the ship being delivered.

The only Fletchers to have the forward twin 40-mm mounts with the early Square-Bridge configuration ... were DD-527, 528, and 529. Bush (DD-529) was lost with this configuration, Ammen (DD-527) was modified at the time she was recommissioned in the 1950's and Mullany (DD-528) retained the early Square-Bridge bridge her ENTIRE career.

Irwin as completed 24 February 1944


DD-685 Picking while fitting-out on 5 July 1943. Note that she was fitted for three 20-mm mounts and the original Square-Bridge style, but by the time she was delivered/completed 21 September 1943. Side note: Guess what has been delivered for installation?

[Timmy C]

Her torpedo tubes!