At 'Em Arizona Fans!

[dbmoens]

I hope it was someone here just snapped up a copy of Stillwell for 99.99 on eBay. I was away and didn't get a chance to bid.

Well that would have been me. I almost didn't bid but I've been wanting the book to help with my 1/200 build once I start it so I went for it. I suppose $99 isn't too bad of a price considering.

Neil

Great job Neil! It's good to know it went to an appreciative home and not to a speculator.
Dave

[mark_sch]

TCM is going to be show "Here comes the Navy" Febuary 7th at 6:00am central standard time. Set those DVR's who have them. Only wish they would put this movie on DVD.
Mark

[JCRAY]

I think the photo's of the bomb damage to the number 9 gun casement of Pennsylvania posted on NavSource pretty much settle the issue.

[Tracy White]

I believe this is the photo in question:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013881.jpg

[Tim Reynaga]

I think the photo's of the bomb damage to the number 9 gun casement of Pennsylvania posted on NavSource pretty much settle the issue.

I don't know that the photos definitively settle the issue, but the pics of the damaged casemate deck on Pennsylvania are some pretty good primary source evidence. Still, there is some good evidence for planked casemate decks too. Photos show that battleships Arkansas and Texas did (and Texas still does) have planked casemates... although they were different, older designs and the practice may not have been universal. In the case of Texas, the casemate deck was not fully enclosed as on Pensylvania and Arizona.

And there are those the archaeological survey drawings of the Arizona wreck done by the National Park Service. They do show what appears to be planking, though the place where the deck fragments are drawn could well be decking from the superstructure deck level above the casemates; those same drawings show this area to have partially collapsed into the upper deck level which contained the guns. And of course however carefully done, these drawings are at best secondary sources.

In my view the balance of the evidence points to unplanked decks, probably linoleum covered. Stillwell's reference to the "linoleum-covered steel deck" in the 5 inch gun casemate on page 180 of Battleship Arizona is suggestive, but the best evidence I've come across is those USS Pennsylvania post-attack photos. I don't see any sign at all of splintered wood deck planking there. It is possible that the pics were taken after the damaged wood had been cleared away, but the mess evident in the images makes this seem unlikely. Those decks look smooth, like steel or linoleum.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013886.jpg
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013880.jpg
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013881.jpg
I don't know if this will ever be resolved, but I'm going to go ahead and attach those plastic "linoleum" decks on my model... and just get on with it!

[KevinH]

Hi all, new to the forums. Getting ready to start 1/700 and gathering info for a pearl diorama. Question: in reading several eyewitness accounts I came across two different time frames for the band "raising the Colors", in one it said the Colors were raised at 0750 hours while another said 0800. The 0750 hour seems kinda strange to me, being in the Military it usually falls on top of the hour. Does anyone know?

BTW - wasn't going to pay that much for Stillwell's book..but I did find it at the local library

[Steve Sobieralski]

I think the photo's of the bomb damage to the number 9 gun casement of Pennsylvania posted on NavSource pretty much settle the issue.

That may pretty much settle it�for Pennsylvania. As we all know, there are plenty of visible differences between the two ships and there is no guarantee that what was the case on Pennsylvania was also the case on Arizona and vice versa. Arizona and Pennsylvania were refitted at different yards and it is very possible that the decking in this area could be different on the two ships.

And there are those the archaeological survey drawings of the Arizona wreck done by the National Park Service. They do show what appears to be planking, though the place where the deck fragments are drawn could well be decking from the superstructure deck level above the casemates; those same drawings show this area to have partially collapsed into the upper deck level which contained the guns. And of course however carefully done, these drawings are at best secondary sources.

I do not believe that the areas of wood decking shown on the drawing are collapsed superstructure deck. If you refer to Stillwell�s book, on page 256 there is a 1942 photograph looking down from the main mast on to the superstructure deck. The areas of the deck to the left of stack, above where the planking is shown on the drawings, are intact and above water; later these areas of deck were cut away and removed as shown on page 260. Also note that in this photograph all the wood planking has been removed from the superstructure deck, if there were remnants of the deck in this area there would be no wood on it. The only collapsed area of the superstructure deck remaining on the ship appears to be forward in the vicinity of the conning tower and empty 1.1 tubs.

If anyone has questions regarding the accuracy and veracity of the park service survey this document describes the methodology used:

http://www.library.arizona.edu/exhibits ... z_arch.htm

There is also an annotated drawing showing more detail, and labeling these areas as teak deck, here:

http://www.nps.gov/archive/usar/scrs/fig38b.jpg

I would think that a well documented survey of the actual ship would be considered a primary source. Unless someone has an alternate explanation for the planking shown on the park service drawings, it appears to me that the preponderance of actual evidence relating to Arizona, at least that I am aware of, is that the casemate decks were planked.

[JCRAY]

Steve if you want to believe the Arizona had wood decks in interior compartments even though photos of her sister Pennsylvania show "photographic evidence" of steel decks in those casements, not a few lines on a drawing. ok, i give up.

[Bob Crawford]

I've just finished, what I believe to be, a pretty good representation of the range dials for 1/200 Arizona's masts. On pg. 185 of Stilwells book, is a photo of the mainmast and in it you can see the range dials and parrellel lines holding lanterns or lights aft of the fire control stations. I believe these are navigation lights for signals such as "not under command" or "towing", which are 2 and 3 light signals. Why 5 lights and what were their colors? Just curious. TIA

[Steve Sobieralski]

I believe that I have found further information that may settle the issue, at least it has for me. The decking in the Arizona�s casemates was apparently not wood. To monitor the state of the ship the park service placed over 50 sensors on her decks in the 1984-86 time period.

The locations of the sensors are shown here:

http://www.nps.gov/archive/usar/scrs/scrs4c.htm

The descriptions of the locations are here:

http://www.nps.gov/archive/usar/scrs/scrs4d.htm

Despite the fact that some of the stations are shown to be located quite close to the sections of exposed wood deck shown on the drawing, none of them indicate a wood deck in this area. What they do indicate is a bare steel deck covered by a black tarry substance, which the park service attributes to the heavier components of fuel oil settling on the deck over the years. There is also no mention of any evidence of linoleum.

This is actually good news for me as I am laying a planked deck on my model and this will mean less work.

JCRAY, your skepticism about the accuracy of the NPS drawing was obiously well-founded and my faith in it misplaced.

[Tracy White]

Considering that the tarry substance was listed to be about an inch thick, I think we can assume it's not any sort of aged linoleum. The problem we have is that we have no true record of what work was done in this area and what damage the decking might have received both before and after they were submerged. Regardless of whether it was solid metal or Linoleum, it would have been colored to suit the application, most likely deck gray or green.

I'll be down in the records of the Pearl Harbor Navy Yard next week and will be looking for information on Linoleum.

[Perth_shipyard]

right, i've been suckered in by the lot of you after reading this forum... just picked up two of the trumpeters 1/200 kits and the extra pe set from trumpeter. Thinking one as built and the other as at pearl.


what have i done...

[Bondoman]

right, i've been suckered in by the lot of you after reading this forum... just picked up two of the trumpeters 1/200 kits and the extra pe set from trumpeter. Thinking one as built and the other as at pearl.


what have i done...

That's a LOT of plastic, Mate! As built will be really a challenge, but go going.

[dsk]

You've got a lot of work ahead of you to finish one them as an "as built" model. For one thing you're going to have to chop off the torpedo blisters and fill them in. If you can do it though, more power to you and hope you show it off to us when you're done.

[Perth_shipyard]

oh yep, I know. It was a spur of the moment thing. The majority of my ships are scratchbuilt so shouldn't be too daunting just need a good set of plans. Waiting for either the scale deck or nautilus wooden deck to come through before I start on the Pearl version. Though there's a lot of work to do on the hull before I get to the deck anyway!

Very crisp and clean detailed kit... though so much more that can be added!

[Steamguy]

I'm thinking about getting a 2nd one, to build and motorize for the pool. 1st one will be put in display case

Mike Pierce

[dsk]

Many of us suspect that the kit will be released in R/C form at some point, given the obvious mounting bosses on the model for gears and levers. You might want to wait a little while.

[Bondoman]

Stilwell's book is currently 299 on amazon.

[GreyGhost]

There is a copy of Stillwell's Arizona on ebay someone is selling for 79.95 with 4.00 shipping if anyone is interested. about 3 days left on the auction.

Neil

[Tracy White]

I busted on the Linoleum search in the Pearl Harbor and Mare Island records, by the way. The closest we came was a document on Aircraft carrier steel decking.